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Author Topic:   Could this really have happened?
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 136 of 159 (321273)
06-13-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by riVeRraT
06-13-2006 6:54 AM


Re: nazarite / nazarene
Yes, he said that.
He also pointed out it was not called Nazareth until the 3rd century.
You will also not find any REFERENCE To any town called nazareth during the 1st century. The town alledgely was big enough to have a synauguogue, (according to the NT). That would have made it big enough to attract notice. Yet, no record of it.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 137 of 159 (321286)
06-13-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ramoss
06-13-2006 10:11 PM


Re: nazarite / nazarene
You will also not find any REFERENCE To any town called nazareth during the 1st century. ... Yet, no record of it.
...except in the bible.
quote:
kai elqwn katwkhsen eiV polin legomenhn nazaret opwV plhrwqh to rhqen dia twn profhtwn oti nazwraioV klhqhsetai
i don't claim to know any greek, but that sure looks like it says "nazaret" to me. apparently, another variant even has it spelled with a theta instead of a tau.
He also pointed out it was not called Nazareth until the 3rd century.
so, this raises a question. was matthew even refering to nazara? did he simply make up "nazareth" because it sounded like "nazarite?" the modern nazareth isn't spelling like nazarite, as i pointed out above. they have different roots. is the modern town's name, perhaps, influenced by the bible? such things are kind of commonplace in israel...


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 Message 138 by lfen, posted 06-13-2006 11:58 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 138 of 159 (321296)
06-13-2006 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by arachnophilia
06-13-2006 11:26 PM


Re: nazarite / nazarene
is the modern town's name, perhaps, influenced by the bible? such things are kind of commonplace in israel...
This site offers detailed evidence to support the position that that is what happened: Nazareth – The Town that Theology Built
It looks like the town was built afterwards to capitalize on the supposed relationship to Christ.
Perambulating to the rescue, in the early 4th century, came the 80-year-old dowager Empress Helena. Preparing the way for an imminent meeting with her maker with a program of 'Works', she made a conscience-salving pilgrimage to Palestine. In the area of Nazareth she could find nothing but an ancient well - in fact the only water source in the area (which in itself demolishes the idea there was ever a 'city' ). No doubt encouraged by canny locals, Helena promptly labelled the hole in the ground 'Mary's Well' and had a small basilica built over the spot. Conveniently, the gospels had failed to make clear exactly where Mary had been when the archangel Gabriel had come calling. Thus the Well site acquired local support for the divine visitation and Nazareth acquired its first church.
Nazareth – The Town that Theology Built

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 139 of 159 (321305)
06-14-2006 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by lfen
06-13-2006 11:58 PM


Re: nazarite / nazarene
quote:
Perambulating to the rescue, in the early 4th century, came the 80-year-old dowager Empress Helena.
ah, ok, that's all i need to hear. it's yet another "constantine's mother" story. i see, that would make sense. she went around the holy land after constantine's conversion, and apparently named many places totally arbitrarily. as i recall, she claimed to consult the natives, but at best that's only agreeing with local tradition.
seek, and you will find.
(especially if someone has something to sell)


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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 140 of 159 (321315)
06-14-2006 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by arachnophilia
06-14-2006 12:18 AM


Re: nazarite / nazarene
(especially if someone has something to sell)
Like wouldn't it be quaint to spend the night in an Inn that George Washington slept in? Maybe even sleep in the same bed ol' George slept in? Suddenly that lumpy old bed in a creaky draft Inn is a night to be remembered. It's all in the marketing.
lfen (who is only cynically because there are so many bs'ing marketing weasels and spin meisters shoveling it 24/7)

This message is a reply to:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 141 of 159 (321402)
06-14-2006 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by arachnophilia
06-13-2006 4:12 PM


Re: Fictional Prophecy
we could make a thread of this, what do fundamentalists make of it when the bible refers to books that are not in the bible?
That might be an interesting thread, and it might not.
For the most part they ignore it and say "so what?" However, I got a pretty interesting dance from my Greek teacher (I just had one semester) when I asked him about Jude's reference to Enoch. That one's not a passing reference; it's a quote from the Book of Enoch referred to as prophecy and attributed to Enoch.

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 142 of 159 (321414)
06-14-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by riVeRraT
06-13-2006 6:54 AM


Re: nazarite / nazarene
Archaeology in Nazareth confirms human habitation since the Stone Age and twenty three tombs from New Testament times have been found in what was then a small village
that doesn't mean that it was nazareth though, the site i believe says they where dated after when jesus died, after 100ad
it wasn't called nazareth till after jesus

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 143 of 159 (321423)
06-14-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by lfen
06-14-2006 1:04 AM


Re: nazarite / nazarene
Hey, I know someone who owns an old old house that used to be a place where George Washington met for battle plans. The secret room has since been converted to a real room, but the trapdoor down to the kitchen still is there.

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AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 159 (321428)
06-14-2006 11:17 AM


Drifting
Guys, the topic please.
Maybe someone could start a thread on Nazareth?
AdminBrian.
Edited by AdminBrian, : No reason given.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 145 of 159 (321615)
06-14-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by truthlover
06-14-2006 10:26 AM


Re: Fictional Prophecy
That might be an interesting thread, and it might not.
For the most part they ignore it and say "so what?" However, I got a pretty interesting dance from my Greek teacher (I just had one semester) when I asked him about Jude's reference to Enoch. That one's not a passing reference; it's a quote from the Book of Enoch referred to as prophecy and attributed to Enoch.
interesting. maybe i'll dig up an old post of mine that lists the places the old testament refers to books both within and outside of the bible, and make a new thread...


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Nighttrain, posted 06-24-2006 8:05 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 146 of 159 (321659)
06-14-2006 11:46 PM


Nazowhatevers
Hugh Schonfield covers the origins in some depth in The Passover Plot-Element Books. Whether Nazareanes(Mandaeans),Nazoreans(Notsrim),Nazirites(Hegesippus claims James,the brother of Jesus and head of the community, was a Nazirite--which is at odds with Jesus being 'gluttonous and a winebibber'-Matt 12:19), Schonfield contends that most of these sects had northern (Israel/Samaritan)roots, and were pre-Christian.

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 147 of 159 (321821)
06-15-2006 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Teets_Creationist
06-06-2006 12:03 PM


Re: This DID really happen! And does.
Test.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : Irrelevant

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 148 of 159 (325817)
06-24-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by arachnophilia
06-14-2006 9:43 PM


Re: Fictional Prophecy
interesting. maybe i'll dig up an old post of mine that lists the places the old testament refers to books both within and outside of the bible, and make a new thread...
Got that post handy, Spiderman? Must have missed that thread. I`ll see if I can dig up the apologetic reasons for dismissing extra-canonical books.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by arachnophilia, posted 06-14-2006 9:43 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by arachnophilia, posted 06-24-2006 9:24 PM Nighttrain has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 149 of 159 (325851)
06-24-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Nighttrain
06-24-2006 8:05 PM


sources cited
Got that post handy, Spiderman? Must have missed that thread. I`ll see if I can dig up the apologetic reasons for dismissing extra-canonical books.
ah, heck. i have a terrible memory. after much searching on this board, i realized i made the post elsewhere. here is the post, in it's entirety. i'm sure i missed a few, like the quote from enoch.
quote:
many, many books in the old testament refer to other books. here's a few examples:
quote:
Num 21:14 Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the LORD, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,
quote:
Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?
quote:
2Sa 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in he book of Jasher.)
the book of jasher, btw, is a book we have.
quote:
1Ki 11:41 And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon?
quote:
1Ki 14:19 And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.
quote:
1Ki 14:29 Now the rest of the acts of Rehoboam, and all that he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
might be the source documents for chronicles
quote:
1Ch 9:1 So all Israel were reckoned by genealogies; and, behold, they were written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah, who were carried away to Babylon for their transgression.
the book of kings, above. ironically, they refer to each other for more information, but say the exact same things...
quote:
1Ch 29:29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,
samuel we have, but nathan and gad we do not
quote:
2Ch 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in he prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
quote:
2Ch 12:15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually.
quote:
2Ch 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.
refers to deuteronomy. other instances of "the book of the law" etc might refer to genesis/exodus/numbers, or who knows what, based on various times. that's another post entirely, about when what source became part of the torah
quote:
Ezr 4:15 That search may be made in the book of the records of thy fathers: so shalt thou find in the book of the records, ...
quote:
Neh 12:23 The sons of Levi, the chief of the fathers, were written in the book of the chronicles, even until the days of Johanan the son of Eliashib.
etc. new testament books also like to refer to old testament books:
quote:
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
quote:
Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
(isaiah)
quote:
Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
quote:
Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
"prophets" is a whole section of the hebrew bible, encompassing joshua, judges, samuel, kings, the 3 major prophets, and the 12 minor prophets. this is probably refering to the 12 minor prophets, commonly regarded as one book. the verse is found in amos
edit: if you like, i'll remove this post after someone starts an appropriate new topic for it, and post it there.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Nighttrain, posted 06-24-2006 8:05 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Nighttrain, posted 06-24-2006 9:57 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 150 of 159 (325871)
06-24-2006 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by arachnophilia
06-24-2006 9:24 PM


Re: sources cited
Thanks, bud. Before a nosy admin pulls us up, any thoughts on the exact Hebrew word for 'book', bearing in mind our concept of book might be more in line with a codex?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by arachnophilia, posted 06-24-2006 9:24 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by arachnophilia, posted 06-24-2006 10:21 PM Nighttrain has replied

  
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