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Author Topic:   Random Creationist - You Are Wrong Because
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 9 (50844)
08-18-2003 11:11 AM


I posted this over at No Answers in Genesis, but I thought folks here might enjoy it as well.
I was reading Scott Adams' "The Joy of Work", and got to "Dealing with irrational co-workers".
Adams suggests that rather than trying to argue with irrational people (e.g. most of the creationists we get here - one or two names do spring to mind especially), which anyway is like trying to nail fog to a wall, one should just circle the irrational argument used on the following list and hand it back.
I hope this will be of some use. I've changed Adams' examples to ones we're familiar with from creationists.
1. Amazingly bad analogy
e.g. cars change with time but don't evolve from each other. Therefore the change over time in species doesn't indicate evolution.
2. Faulty cause and effect
e.g. the murder rate has gone up since the 1860s. Therefore evolution is responsible for murder.
3. I am the world
e.g. I don't like evolution therefore it isn't true.
4. Ignoring everything science knows.
e.g. The speed of light is slowing down, so distant galaxies can be visible in a young universe
n.b. the original was "Ignoring everything science knows about the brain", but I altered it for more direct relevance.
5. The few are the same as the whole
e.g. Some fossils only consist of a tooth or a bone. Therefore all fossils are just a tooth or a bone and conclusions based on them are spurious
6. Generalising from self
e.g. My arguments consist of unverifiable facts and mere personal opinion, therefore yours do as well.
7. Argument by bizarre definition
e.g. Evolution is atheism. God exists. Therefore evolution is false
8. Total Logical Disconnect
e.g. anything said by Joe
9. Judging things without comparison to alternatives
e.g. there are too many unanswered questions in evolutionary theory to accept it.
10. Anything you don't understand is easy to do
e.g. here's my calculations using figures from the top of my head that prove that humans can't share a common ancestor with chimpanzees in the last billion years.
11. Ignorance of Statistics
e.g. If something has a 1 in a hundred chance of happening, a hundred trials are required before it will occur
12. Ignoring the downside
e.g. I know that the last six arguments I presented from "Christian Answers" were shot down in flames, but I still believe them
13. Substituting famous quotes for common sense
e.g. "All Scripture is God-breathed....", therefore I can ignore all physical evidence.
14. Irrelevant comparisons
e.g. Tornadoes, junkyards and 747s
15. Circular reasoning
e.g. The Bible is inerrant because my interpretation of the Bible says it's inerrant. This interpretation is based on the preconception that the Bible is inerrant.
16. Incompleteness as a proof of defect
e.g. Evolution cannot give your life spiritual meaning and therefore it is false
17. Ignoring the advice of experts without a good reason
e.g. I don't care that 99% of scientists accept evolution, I believe in my interpretation of my Bibul.
18. Following the advice of known idiots
e.g. "Dr Dino" says that......
19. Reaching bizarre conclusions without any information
e.g. There was this vapour canopy over the earth before the flood, which....
20. Faulty pattern recognition
e.g. The last twenty-seven arguments I cut'n'pasted from AiG were shot down in flames, but the twenty-eighth will be a killer you have no answer to. (i.e. Mattism)
21. Failure to recognize what's important
e.g. So what you found lots of transitional whales in strata around the 50 million year old mark? There are some question marks over the exact dating of some of those strata.
22. Left out; purely a business issue
23. Overapplication of Occam's Razor
e.g. Creationism is easier to understand than evolution so I'll believe that.
24. Ignoring all anecdotal evidence
We'll let them off on this; creationists don't ignore anecdotal evidence because it's all they've got.
25. Inability to understand that some things have multiple causes
e.g. So. Did birds evolve wings to escape predators or assist in running? Come on, one or the other! Get your story straight, evolutionists!
26. Judging the whole by one of its characteristics.
e.g. some mutations are lethal. Therefore mutations can only be a bad thing.
27. Blinding flashes of the obvious
e.g. The universe exists. It must have come from somewhere!
28. Blaming the tool
e.g. I read Talk Origins but I didn't understand any of it. Therefore the information there must be bogus.
29. Hallucinations of reality
e.g. I got my facts from Dr Dino
30. Taking things to their illogical conclusion
e.g. If you teach children evolution, they'll all become nazis.
31. Failure to understand why rules don't have exceptions
e.g. Intelligent Design isn't God of the Gaps because erm... erm... erm... erm...
32. Proof by lack of evidence
e.g. You don't have the full transitional series between jellyfish and anteaters? Evolution must be false.
Better examples are welcomed. I wonder how long it'll be before the creationist side comes up with a feeble counter-version?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 2:10 PM Karl has replied

  
A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 9 (50874)
08-18-2003 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Karl
08-18-2003 11:11 AM


OH! you were speaking about C R E A T I O N I S M... I thought you
might have become confused with evolutionists (who do the same---
they simply have more backing, presently). Remember though, backing
never made ANYONE right nor ANYTHING true. I just makes them feel
safe...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Karl, posted 08-18-2003 11:11 AM Karl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 08-18-2003 2:15 PM A_Christian has not replied
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2003 2:17 PM A_Christian has not replied
 Message 6 by Karl, posted 08-18-2003 4:25 PM A_Christian has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 9 (50875)
08-18-2003 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by A_Christian
08-18-2003 2:10 PM


(who do the same---
they simply have more backing, presently).
You're absolutely right - specifically, the backing of evidence.
Remember though, backing
never made ANYONE right nor ANYTHING true.
...unless that backing is evidence. Almost magic, really, that evidence. It's a great way to find out what actually happened, and what's make-believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 2:10 PM A_Christian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by MrHambre, posted 08-18-2003 2:19 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 9 (50876)
08-18-2003 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by A_Christian
08-18-2003 2:10 PM


Looks like 6, 17 and 21 to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 2:10 PM A_Christian has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 5 of 9 (50877)
08-18-2003 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
08-18-2003 2:15 PM


Back in Thirty
I'd like to request that A. Christian represent me at my upcoming murder trial.
------------------
En la tierra de ciegos, el tuerto es el Rey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 08-18-2003 2:15 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 9 (50887)
08-18-2003 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by A_Christian
08-18-2003 2:10 PM


Well do feel free to post examples of mainstream scientists doing any of the above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 2:10 PM A_Christian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by posterdot, posted 09-04-2003 10:40 PM Karl has not replied

  
posterdot
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 9 (53936)
09-04-2003 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Karl
08-18-2003 4:25 PM


Good challenge, karl
As all humans are prone to error, and are poor at catching their own errors, it seems to me that we all are susceptible to making the same egregious mistakes.
I will take up your challenge and supply an example or two if I can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Karl, posted 08-18-2003 4:25 PM Karl has not replied

  
Raha
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 9 (54155)
09-06-2003 6:13 AM


Adams suggests that rather than trying to argue with irrational people...
Yes, there is no point of arguing with someone who already "knows the truth".
one should just circle the irrational argument used on the following list and hand it back.
Why? Isn't it just waste of time and energy? If there is no chance to reach consensus, if neither you neither the other party can't learn anything from the dialogue, why to proceed with it? Intellectual masochism?
------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by DC85, posted 09-07-2003 11:39 PM Raha has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 9 of 9 (54415)
09-07-2003 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Raha
09-06-2003 6:13 AM


Human nature... Altough sometimes pointless we argue to show power

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Raha, posted 09-06-2003 6:13 AM Raha has not replied

  
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