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Author Topic:   Why is Evolution at odds with Christianity?
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 31 of 56 (49683)
08-09-2003 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by paul nicholson
08-09-2003 9:38 AM


Well, here I go again.
But I think you would find it hard to find an Evolutionist who is a serious Christian. I mean a Bible believing Christian.
Personally, I find it hard to fine a creationist who is a serious Christian, if the definition of a serious Christian is a Bible believing one.
Where is the creationist who has sold all his possessions and given them to the poor (Luk 12:33, and notice this is addressed to everyone, not just the apostles)? Where is the creationist who cares enough about the Bible to live close enough to his church members that he can "exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" (Heb 3:13)?
Where is the creationist who agrees with David that it is "good and pleasant for brothers to dwell together in unity," or at least who believes it enough to live with his brothers?
That's a start. We can go over some more if you want, but I think that where there are people who are as united as the Father and the Son (Jn 17:20-23), you will find non-literal Bible believers, and where you find people who are distinguished by their love for one another (Jn 13:34), you will find people who don't believe Genesis one is literal.
Where you want bickering, division, and people who "pick the best church," there you will find literal believers of Genesis one. The more bickering and the more vitriolic rhetoric you find, the more likely it is that they will staunchly hold to a six day creation and a six thousand year old earth.
I believe the Bible. It says, "You will know them by their fruit."
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
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paul nicholson
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 56 (49898)
08-11-2003 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Jack
08-09-2003 10:38 AM


Mr Jack, I am sure your Mum as an ordained Priest would be a Bible believing Christian (of course I cannot decide who is a christian and who is not. Only God himself can judge such things.) As a Priest what would she do if the Bible didnt agree with Evolutionary theorys.? Would she question evolutionary ideas or would she question the Bible. Of course as a Priest her faith in the Word of God must be strong so she must question evolution. So may I ask ,with all due respect,does she, as a Priest believe that God created the world in 6 days as he said he did? Or does she try to fit evolution into her faith somehow?

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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 33 of 56 (49899)
08-11-2003 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by paul nicholson
08-09-2003 10:00 AM


Since I don't beleive in miracles, I would estimate the chance that bones would "miraculously fall into place" as zero.
However the actual construction of bones is based on developmental biology - which is certainly not going to randomly position bones. Given that, there is no need for bones to "fall into place" by chance.

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paul nicholson
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 56 (49900)
08-11-2003 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by John
08-09-2003 10:45 AM


Hi John, So has man in his wisdom,ever created anything that reproduces itself again and again? Something that will evolve into something better? No Man would like to but cannot. Why? Because our intelligence is limited but Gods is not. Everything we create does the oppsite. Our cars get old, our houses need repairing. the law nature says that everything goes from order to disorder.
Gods creation is so infinitely more complex than a swiss watch. You would never believe a swiss watch evolved but somehow you can believe that something so much more complex can evolve?? Strange.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by Mammuthus, posted 08-11-2003 9:06 AM paul nicholson has not replied
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Data
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 56 (49901)
08-11-2003 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by paul nicholson
08-11-2003 8:53 AM


quote:
Hi John, So has man in his wisdom,ever created anything that reproduces itself again and again? Something that will evolve into something better? No Man would like to but cannot.
Ever heard of a genetic algorithm?
It's a program that simulates nature, creating mutating reproducing organisms. As it happens, we see evolution occuring. Hell, I'm still in school and I've written one.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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paul nicholson
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 56 (49902)
08-11-2003 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by mark24
08-09-2003 11:49 AM


Hi Mark 24, You may not take my argument seriously but you will take God seriously when you face him one day.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 52 by mark24, posted 08-12-2003 8:34 AM paul nicholson has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 37 of 56 (49905)
08-11-2003 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by paul nicholson
08-11-2003 8:36 AM


Creationists don't question..that is the problem. They accept an extremely constrained view of the world and are forced to ignore contradictory evidence or make arguments that circumlocute the facts...alternatively, they build strawman arguements which are easily refuted as a basis for their nay saying..probably because actually learning about the subject is too time consuming or difficult for people of such a mind set...easier to have an opinion than actually know what you are talking about.
Scientists on the other hand question constantly...the theory of evolution like the theory of gravity is not static...it is probed for weaknesses all the time and like all theories remains tentative which is a cornerstone of science..thus theories are made more robust when challenged...they can also be overthrown i.e. falsified.
Creationism however, is unable by its own definition to change or accept contradictory evidence so that the proponents are forced into all manners of illogical thinking, ad hominem attacks, and bizarre unsupportable hypothesis most of which are untestable and non-scientific.
It is unlikely Mr.Jack's mother would be a carpet chewing biblical literalist and a zoologist at the same time. And if she accepts the theory of evolution it makes her a Christian who accepts the theory of evolution .... plenty of those around.
[This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 08-11-2003]

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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 38 of 56 (49906)
08-11-2003 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by paul nicholson
08-11-2003 8:53 AM


quote:
Everything we create does the oppsite. Our cars get old, our houses need repairing. the law nature says that everything goes from order to disorder.
You mean humans don't get old, need repairing i.e. geriatric care like hip replacement, we don't die?...dammit! I could have saved a bundle on retirement payments and life insurance if I had known this...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by paul nicholson, posted 08-11-2003 8:53 AM paul nicholson has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 39 of 56 (49907)
08-11-2003 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by paul nicholson
08-11-2003 9:01 AM


No no no..he will have to face the Cosmic Goat of Eternal Flatulance as stated in the Book of Celestial Cervids...I have just as much evidence for this as you have for your scenario

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 40 of 56 (49908)
08-11-2003 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by paul nicholson
08-11-2003 8:36 AM


I cannot speak fully for another. But I will try to answer as best I can. My understanding is that she does not believe in six day creation, but does believe that god created the universe. You present a false dichotomy in "Would she question evolutionary ideas or would she question the Bible?", for all things are open to rational inquiry. I believe she holds the bible to be an imperfectly transmitted record of god's acts and words, and that one can only truly know the will of god through prayer and discussion with others also involved in prayer.

This message is a reply to:
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paul nicholson
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 56 (49910)
08-11-2003 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Data
08-11-2003 9:01 AM


"Were you there when I made the world? If you know so much tell me about it.Who decided how large it would be? Who stretched the measuring line over it?Do you know all the answers?
Who closed the gates to hold back the sea when it burst from the womb of the earth? It was I who covered the sea with clouds and wrapped it with darkness. I marked a boundary for the sea......
Have you ever in all your life commanded a day to dawn?.....
Have you walked on the floor of the ocean? Has anyone ever shown you the gates that guard the dark world of the dead?.....Who makes rain fall where noone lives?...Can you guide the stars season by season? ...Can you8 shout orders to the clouds? Was it you who made horses so strong and gave them their flowing manes?...Does a hawk learn from you how to fly?...Does an eagle wait for your command to build its nest high in the mountains?? Job Chapter 38-39
You are a mere speck on this earth. Dont you fear God?

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Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 42 of 56 (49914)
08-11-2003 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by paul nicholson
08-11-2003 9:01 AM


Hi, Paul!
paul nicholson writes:
Hi Mark 24, You may not take my argument seriously but you will take God seriously when you face him one day.
EvC Forum has a number of forums on different subjects, and we try to encourage that threads stay on topic. This forum, the Evolution forum, is for discussions on the topic of evolution where a scientific slant is taken. Most of the other forums are also scientifically oriented. Arguments that take a more faith-based approach belong in the Faith and Belief forum, or perhaps the Miscellaneous Topics or Free For All forums.
------------------
--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
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Karl
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 56 (49921)
08-11-2003 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by paul nicholson
08-11-2003 9:01 AM


You've moved very quickly through the creationist flowchart. Usually we get a few more PRATTs or hiding behind complete ignorance of science before we get the "You'll go to Hell" or the "You'll have to answer to God" bits.
Question - where in the Bible does it say that the Judgement has anything to do with biodiversity origin models?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by paul nicholson, posted 08-11-2003 9:01 AM paul nicholson has not replied

Replies to this message:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 56 (49943)
08-11-2003 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Karl
08-11-2003 10:29 AM


hmmm... what's a PRATT?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
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Karl
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 56 (49945)
08-11-2003 12:03 PM


Point Refuted A Thousand Times

  
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