FREE WILL....... or is it.

Assuming linear time (big assumption I know), then any future
actor stepping into the past is there for the first and only
play of that event, however, they may not be there for the
first time.You do not enter an infinite loop, you perform a single loop
and come out of the event a second time, only the second time
you do not go back in time.Neither of your concluding remarks are relevent, since there
is the same event and no infinite looping.Has the free will evaporated?
OR
Has the observer re-observed the excercise of free will, while
having existing knowledge of the actual outcome?

Just thought I'd bump this cause I find the
discussion interesting.Sorry ... couldn't help myself

Funkster,Having thought about Free Will vs predetermination a little bit more, I now find myself going *wobbly* . I'm not at all sure I can make any qualitative distinction between the illusion of free will and free will itself.As you point out, what difference does it make to the individual concerned if they might have chosen differently?I think some metaphysical surgery may be called for...PE

Hang on, PE, are you saying that you think free will can be described as the choice of one course of action out of a total of one (1) possibilities?

I'm starting to think that free will is not a concept that is readily defined from "the outside". I've moved from my original position that predetermination denies free will, to thinking that this is at best arguable.If a person thinks they have two choices whereas they are forced to make a particular choice, unbeknownst to them, then someone may say from the outside "Ah! They've got no free will!", while the person making the choice would say "well, I certainly felt as if I had free will".It makes more sense to me that the question of whether or not someone has free will is determined by virtue of the individual concerned and not some sort of metaphysical absolute outside position. Unfortunately one consequence of this is that "free will" becomes almost indistinguishable from "consciousness", that other slippery-to-define customer.And I wouldn't even know where to begin answering the question "Does God have free will?"PE

Knowing what someone will choose to do is not the
same as predetermination.From the chooser's perspective there is no
way of knowing whether or not a decision was made freely
or was directed from some outside agency.At any decision point we can only make one choice, so in hindsight
we see 'predetermination'.I guess you could say that we have a kind of 'constrained will'
in any case. We are all the sum of our experiences to date,
and their influence on our behaviour will mean that in any situation
we will only have a sub-set of the possible choices come to
mind. Different people will have different sub-sets.I once discussed this with someone who could not accept that
if you were stood on the edge of a precipice one possible choice
was to step into the abyss. He considered that not an option at all,
and defended that belief vigorously.

Firstly, if there is nothing ‘supernatural’ about the brain, then we have no free will, since if our thoughts are simply an anomaly of the physical laws, then they are unfree. Randomness i.e. Heisenberg, does not enable free will since randomness has no meaning and though unpredictable randomness does not ‘choose’ by definition [though some may claim that ‘God’ chooses in which case our minds would be controlled by ‘God’] and is therefore unconscious.Imagine this paradox. [though some may have seen this before]A ‘choice’ is free by definition, since if your actions are predetermined or forced then they are not chosen.In order to make a choice, you must have a reason for doing so or else you are acting on instinct/subconsciously. And this reason, must itself be reliant on other reasons since a reason that has arisen from no reasons is ‘unreasonable’ or impossible.And yet if all of our ‘choices’ are made because of reasons which are in turn reliant on other reasons which are then in turn reliant on more reasons, etc Then how are our choices free since all things happen for reasons over which we have no control?There are only two possibilities. 1 [which requires faith] a dogmatic assumption. 2 There is no such thing as choice.The dogmatic assumption may take the form. God makes it possible for us to have free will, and it is beyond us to understand how.But one might ask the question, why should I believe that? to which the dogmatist will have no rational explanation.

'Choice' is free by definition, but the question involved
in whether or not we have free will is actually the same
as whether or not we have a genuine choice.If you see what I mean.So the reasoning you put forward seems a little backward to
me ... you are assuming free will by suggesting that there IS
a choice.The question is not about how we choose, but whether or not
we could have chosen differently.That cannot be answered (unless we find we can peep into
parallel universes).

All my arguing for free will and then I find my own scriptures say different. So God has mercy on whom he will have mercy. No free will.I'm thinking that before the fall man had free will but gave it up when he brought sin into the world.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

I'm thinking that if you try to reconcile your beliefs with everything the Bible says you'll drive yourself crazy.--Percy

quote:

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So God has mercy on whom he will have mercy. No free will.

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I think it is important to bear in mind that Paul is reconciling his view of God's omniscience and mercy. God, being eternal and omniscient, cannot create Jacob and Esau without knowing that ultimately he will show mercy to one and not the other. In a sense, though Paul would never put it this way, it is God who does not have free will in this matter. Why? Because our will is only really free if we don't know all the consequences of our actions. If we really knew what punishments of hell awaited us, could we really do other than choose to avoid them?God however, in Paul's theology, is beyond this kind of cause and effect. Choosing to create one who will reject Him, is the same act as dealing with that rejection.

Mister Pamboli,I see you do not agree with me on much of anything. What I was getting at is the idea of predestination, which eliminates the idea of free will. I have these scriptures which clearly state predestination. (it may prove beneficial to read these scriptures in context, I have done so and do not think I am misrepresenting them, but I do not mind being corrected) These are taken from the NIV translation.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

We probably agree on more than you might realize! But I do have some general issues with the idea that we can meaningfully express in human terms, details of our relationship with God, with sufficient accuracy to regard them as strictly normative.Predestination is a very very human term, because it is related to time, which God is beyond. The acts of creation and judgement cannot be separate to God, but must be indivisible - one and the same act, because He is unchanging and eternal. Creation, offering of love, our response, His response to our response - these are all one.In this sense, God's judgement is not a reaction to human sin as it happens, but an uttering forth of an eternal truth, "his will". This is why it may seem unfair - we think we change, but that eternal truth does not change in relationship to us, because the result of our changing is already part of that utterance, even before we are aware of it.

quote:

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If we really knew what punishments of
hell awaited us, could we really do other than
choose to avoid them?

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If we have free will, no amount of knowledge can effect
the freedom to choose one's actions.In the above it would seem ridiculous to choose otherwise,
but it is not made impossible to do so.There's a difference.It's like standing on a ledge twenty stories up. You can go
back in or you can step off. Few would choose to step off, but the
choice is open to us.

It seems to me to indicate the same kind of
'constrained will' that I feel we all have.Instead of our genetic heritage and upbrining
limiting our available choices, we have God's
direct intervention in some cases.He is not necessarily taking away all choice, but
limiting the options.