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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(1)
Message 166 of 353 (838668)
08-25-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
08-25-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
...perhaps I'll come back...
Perhaps you will. What's certain is that you will neither grasp nor address the underlying principle when you do.
You are quite happy for government to participate in the economy (or in regulating culture and behavior) in the areas that are important or useful to you, not so much in those that aren't. What you fail to realize is that your choice of an infinitely flexible qualifier like "one way or another" is an exercise in transparently child-like linguistic foot-stamping that translates roughly as "me, me, my way".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 08-25-2018 3:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 08-25-2018 10:50 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 167 of 353 (838679)
08-25-2018 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Hyroglyphx
08-24-2018 12:16 AM


Did a Socialistic decision to own oil fields "create" wealth?
Hyroglyphx said:
quote:
I mean, what is running Sweden's economy? It aren't the Socialist programs which, by the design of it, consumes wealth and cannot create wealth. It's private companies like IKEA, Skype, Volvo, Ericsson, Saab, etc that fund their social programs.
But Norway might possibly have a response that challenges that line of thought.
Government Pension Fund of Norway - Wikipedia
quote:
Norges Bank Investment Management, which runs Norway’s 8.3 trillion krone ($988.2 billion) sovereign wealth fund (the world’s largest), reported 1.8% returns for the fund’s second quarter Tuesday morning.
Norway’s Norges Bank Reports First Inflows Since 2015 | Chief Investment Officer
The fund saves pretty good, but it spends out a portion (on Norwegian social programs) every year.
It might be superior to a private system.
quote:
What Norway did with its oil and we didn’t
When oil was discovered in the Norwegian continental shelf in 1969, Norway was very aware of the finite nature of petroleum, and didn't waste any time legislating policies to manage the new-found resource in a way that would give Norwegians long-term wealth, benefit their entire society and make them competitive beyond just a commodities exporter.
"Norway got the basics right quite early on," says John Calvert, a political science professor at Simon Fraser University. "They understood what this was about and they put in place public policy that they have benefited so much from."
This is in contrast to Canada's free-market approach, he contends, where our government is discouraged from long-term public planning, in favour of allowing the market to determine the pace and scope of development.
"I would argue quite strongly that the Norwegians have done a much better job of managing their [petroleum] resource," Prof. Calvert says.
While No. 15 on the World Economic Forum's global competitiveness rankings, Norway is ranked third out of all countries on its macroeconomic environment (up from fourth last year), "driven by windfall oil revenues combined with prudent fiscal management," according to the Forum.
....
What Norway did with its oil and we didn’t - The Globe and Mail
Nowway has muscle. It owns oil and has a single payer health care system.
quote:
The economy of Norway is a developed mixed economy with state-ownership in strategic areas. Although sensitive to global business cycles, the economy of Norway has shown robust growth since the start of the industrial era. The country has a very high standard of living compared with other European countries, and a strongly integrated welfare system. Norway's modern manufacturing and welfare system rely on a financial reserve produced by exploitation of natural resources, particularly North Sea oil.[13][14][15][16][17]
According to United Nations data for 2016, Norway together with Luxembourg and Switzerland are the only three countries in the world with a GDP per capita above US$70,000 that are not island nations nor microstates.[18]
Economy of Norway - Wikipedia
In 2013 (when the currency was stronger in Norway), this was the health care spending per person.
quote:
Norway, Switzerland and the United States are the world’s three biggest healthcare spenders — paying $9,715 per person (9.6% of GDP), $9,276 per person (11.5% of GDP), and $9,146 per person (17.1% of GDP) respectively.
Economics of healthcare: which countries are getting it right? | World Economic Forum
But in 2016, it was much less.
quote:
Expenditure on healthcare is about USD $6,647 per head per year (2016), among the highest in the world.[1] It has the highest proportion of nurses and midwives per head in Europe - 1,744 per 100,000 in 2015.[3]
Healthcare in Norway - Wikipedia
Here are 2016 numbers. (has a good set of graphs, and includes Norway)
How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker
While Norway is at around $6,500 per person (it isn't on a chart that lists the actual number, but is on a graphical comparison thingy), here is the United States and Switzerland.
United States $10,348
Switzerland $7,919
Norway has a per capita income of $82,000 presently (Switzerland is around $86,000), while we are at about $62,000.
Our health care is 50% more expensive. The government pays 85% of the total Norwegian costs, so I think it is fair to say that the same $ amount is spent by the government's of both countries.
The difference is the smaller dollar amount spent out of pocket in Norway.
It could be that the socialist system does create wealth when it owns an industry, like oil, that is BOTH profitable and maximizes economic growth.
The health care system might be half the PER GDP COST, which could be seen as "reducing GDP 7-9%", but if it is efficient, then it is macro-economically favorable and in actuality it ends up facilitating growth when the bigger picture is viewed from afar.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-24-2018 12:16 AM Hyroglyphx has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 353 (838681)
08-25-2018 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Capt Stormfield
08-25-2018 4:26 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
You don't have a clue about much of anything. All the "one way or another" meant was that people who don't drive also benefit from roads by many indirect means, since they need others to be able to get to them at times, police, ambulances, firefighters, family and friends, delivery people and what not, as well as needing rides themselves. How this amounts to foot-stamping is some weird mental mess of your own. Also you have no idea what I might need or find useful. There is such a thing as supporting an idea because you judge it a good idea for society in general rather than always supporting only things that benefit oneself. But I do think that may be a concept people on the Left have no way of grasping.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-25-2018 4:26 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 12:28 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 170 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-26-2018 12:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 169 of 353 (838682)
08-26-2018 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
08-25-2018 10:50 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Pondering this I thought it might be more accurate to say the Left thinks in terms of benefiting classes of people (a chosen class they assume wants to benefit itself being the connection with what I just said), it's always about benefitting somebody in particular, some class in particular, and not about the best policy for society as a whole, they just don't think that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 08-25-2018 10:50 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by JonF, posted 08-26-2018 9:07 AM Faith has replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(2)
Message 170 of 353 (838683)
08-26-2018 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
08-25-2018 10:50 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
... rather than always supporting only things that benefit oneself.
Wherein your idiotic straw man makes my point yet again. Where are you getting the idea that advocacy for government involvement in the economy necessarily equates with benefiting oneself?
You rationalize government spending on infrastructure based on your perception that it benefits everyone, if only indirectly, and give it a name ("public works") that allows you to pretend that it's different than government spending on other programs that have equally complex ramifications for society. The benefits of government assistance in providing health care, housing, education, etc. is no more limited to the direct recipients of those services than road building is to road builders.
The difference lies primarily in your fear of a word. This is hardly surprising, since your world view is based on superstition and symbolism. As a rational conservative, I see your inability to see past blind ideology in the same way a scientifically literate believer would see your creationism - a tribal reflex, uncontaminated by reason or understanding.
You have confused conservatism with backwardness, and because of people like you and your contemptible disdain for critical thought or learning, your country is falling behind the curve of other industrialized societies in nearly every metric for success and well being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 08-25-2018 10:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 8:58 AM Capt Stormfield has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 353 (838695)
08-26-2018 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Capt Stormfield
08-26-2018 12:54 AM


Socialism
Gosh what a glorious example of ad hominem. I had to look more than once to see if there's even one substantive point in that morass. I'm really not sure, but if there is I don't know how to extricate it from the swamp of belligerent false accusations.
I like this guy Ben Shapiro who you can find at YouTube denouncing socialism as theft. See that's the difference between socialism and public works, it's taking from those who have means to give to those who don't.
That is the role of charity, which he also mentions: we should give to help the poor, and that is an obligation felt by religious people as he points out, but not by atheists and socialists who think the poor should be helped by robbing the rich.
They also have the bizarre idea that rich people are rich because they take it from the poor. That's maybe the stupidest idea that socialists have, stupid, perniciously evil and dangerous for the welfare of society as a whole because it encourages a righteous sense of entitlement that encourages theft and violence. The rich are actually creating wealth that previously didn't exist, they are not taking it from anyone. I'm saying this, as far as I know Shapiro hasn't said it.
Here's one of Ben Shapiro . I think he does a really good job of analyzing the problems with socialism.
He's good on the subject of a basically capitalistic society having a few socialistic programs. It works as long as the socialistic part doesn't get too big (although it is still theft and still has negative effects on society as a whole). He mentions the countries that have some socialistic programs that are mistakenly pointed to as if they were socialistic societies, saying that no, they are capitalistic societies that have enough wealth to support some socialistic programs, but that the overall effect of these programs is negative.
He doesn't mention public works in this one and I don't know if he does anywhere else either since this is all I listened to, but his main point is that socialism takes away the incentive to work and invent because you don't get to keep the money you make, it goes to other people. That is not the case with public works at all since we all share in them equally and we are happy to support them.
The solution to the problems of the poor has to be charity, I don't see an alternative that really works over the long haul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-26-2018 12:54 AM Capt Stormfield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-26-2018 12:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 181 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-26-2018 12:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 182 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-26-2018 1:18 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 08-26-2018 2:14 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 172 of 353 (838696)
08-26-2018 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
08-26-2018 12:28 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
The right in the US thinks only of benefits the 1%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 12:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 9:11 AM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 353 (838697)
08-26-2018 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by JonF
08-26-2018 9:07 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
The right thinks in terms of freedom, not classes of people at all.
Besides, it is that 1% that creates the wealth that prospers society as a whole enough to be able to support some socialistic programs.
Read my post above which is about all this.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by JonF, posted 08-26-2018 9:07 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by JonF, posted 08-26-2018 10:22 AM Faith has replied
 Message 176 by Coragyps, posted 08-26-2018 10:45 AM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 174 of 353 (838698)
08-26-2018 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
08-26-2018 9:11 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
It's the 1% that hoards the wealth and prospers society as a whole not one whit. Plenty of studies have shown that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 9:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 10:29 AM JonF has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 353 (838699)
08-26-2018 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by JonF
08-26-2018 10:22 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Oh nonsense. People with that much money invest it, they don't hoard it. What would be the point of hoarding it anyway? And how DO they hoard it? If it's in a bank account it earns interest and the bank invests it. If it's under their mattress then maybe you could say it's out of circulation but how often is that the case? And who cares anyway? if they earned it it's their money, what business is it of yours? And besides it's in the process of earning it that they contribute wealth by the projects they finance, how else would that happen?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by JonF, posted 08-26-2018 10:22 AM JonF has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 176 of 353 (838700)
08-26-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
08-26-2018 9:11 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Whenever I hear someone say that their wealth is the result of lots of hard work, I do stop and wonder exactly whose hard work?
- some observant person

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 9:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 177 of 353 (838701)
08-26-2018 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Coragyps
08-26-2018 10:45 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Just the usual envious ignorant leftist said that.
If people were not being encouraged to envy the rich they might spend more time doing something creative to improve things, which would improve their own lot
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Coragyps, posted 08-26-2018 10:45 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2018 11:19 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 178 of 353 (838705)
08-26-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Faith
08-26-2018 10:48 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
It's really, really strange that people that call themselve ‘Christians' admire people and vote for economic systems that are the exact opposite of what Jesus's teachings would tell them. I’ll never understand that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 10:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-26-2018 12:02 PM Tangle has not replied
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Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(1)
Message 179 of 353 (838706)
08-26-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Tangle
08-26-2018 11:19 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
I’ll never understand that.
Try driving an ice-pick just a little way into your forehead. That should help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2018 11:19 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 180 of 353 (838707)
08-26-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
08-26-2018 8:58 AM


Re: Socialism
He's good on the subject of a basically capitalistic society having a few socialistic programs. It works as long as the socialistic part doesn't get too big (although it is still theft and still has negative effects on society as a whole). He mentions the countries that have some socialistic programs that are mistakenly pointed to as if they were socialistic societies, saying that no, they are capitalistic societies that have enough wealth to support some socialistic programs, but that the overall effect of these programs is negative.
Or, in other words, successfully socialized countries aren't really socialized because socialism doesn't work. Gosh, I wonder what's really under that kilt....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 8:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 08-26-2018 3:19 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

  
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