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Author Topic:   What do atheists think of death?
fgarb
Member (Idle past 5390 days)
Posts: 98
From: Naperville, IL
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 46 of 103 (457875)
02-26-2008 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by cavediver
02-25-2008 3:27 PM


cavediver writes:
General relativity gives us a very interesting view on time -
Oh, boy. I was afraid someone might bring that up. Time for the complications . I agree that the relativistic combination of time+3space is probably closer to the true nature of things than the common sense way in which most of us think about space and time, and your way of not considering a person to not really be left behind at the time of their temporal death seems like a valid perspective. I could also modify my example so that instead of saying "there might be other you's existing even after you die", it goes "there could be other you's out there experiencing different parts of the universe at some other location in spacetime". That would actually make things easier because it would reduce the necessary spatial size of the universe for the argument to hold. Hell, if the universe turns out to be stable over time (no big crunch, big rip, or heat death ... don't know how that could be possible), then the necessary spatial size would drop to zero.
Or I could just stick with my original example and be more specific. "There may be other you's out there at some spatial coordinate and at the same time as you, according to your frame of reference". Thinking about philosophy in terms of relativity is fun, but also tough, at least for my small mind.
*Whew*. I think I'm finally caught up in responses, but I'll have less time on my hands the next couple of days, so if things keep up at this rate I may just have to drop out for a bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by cavediver, posted 02-25-2008 3:27 PM cavediver has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 47 of 103 (458555)
02-29-2008 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by fgarb
02-26-2008 12:35 AM


Just remember that in an infinite universe, everything with a non-zero probability will happen an infinite number of times
From what I understand your arguement to be is that if there were infinite universes theres a probability that there will be another me, another you, another Bono obnoxiously caring about the enviroment etc., basically a complete replica of our current universe down to the very last detail(example: you and me talking about this in some far off universe). Ok. I will concede that if there are infinte universes there are endless possibilities of what laws will govern those universes however, I don't see why, if given infinte amounts of time to develop, it would replicate. If we were counting to infinty at what point would the numbers start to repet? I think never right? So why would the universe repet a process when it has an infinte amount of ways it can turn out. As I understand it, parallel universes can be governed by completely different laws than ours, how many possible laws can there be? An infinte amount? Therefore, theres no reason to conclude that, if given infinte amounts of time to develop and there are infinte amounts of ways by which it can develop, that the process at any point would have to replicate another you or me or Bono, the outcomes are endless.
This is my understanding of it and of your arguement, if I misunderstood please clarify.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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fgarb
Member (Idle past 5390 days)
Posts: 98
From: Naperville, IL
Joined: 11-08-2007


Message 48 of 103 (458592)
03-01-2008 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by onifre
02-29-2008 7:27 PM


Since I don't understand the theoretical physics behind the multiple universe hypotheses I try to avoid them. I am just thinking about our own universe. Cosmologists/astrophysicists have determined that the observable universe is at least ~90 billion light years across, but the unobservable universe may be infinite, at least if wikipedia is to be believed.
If *this* universe does turn out to be sufficiently large or infinite, and if the principles of physics do not change significantly over large scales, then it is inevitable that other me's must exist. That is the point I am trying to make. No parallel universes are needed, though if they do exist, they would only make the argument more likely to be correct. Does that make sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by onifre, posted 02-29-2008 7:27 PM onifre has not replied

  
Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5842 days)
Posts: 35
Joined: 03-01-2008


Message 49 of 103 (458609)
03-01-2008 8:07 AM


Kill
I'm just wondering if the people who do not believe in a higher power like God would mind if someone killed one of their loved ones.
If you would mind, why would you?
Is it wrong to kill another human?

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Vacate, posted 03-01-2008 8:43 AM Recon3rd has replied
 Message 51 by bluegenes, posted 03-01-2008 8:53 AM Recon3rd has replied
 Message 52 by onifre, posted 03-01-2008 11:28 AM Recon3rd has replied
 Message 53 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2008 1:43 PM Recon3rd has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4600 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 50 of 103 (458614)
03-01-2008 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 8:07 AM


Re: Kill
If you would mind, why would you?
You answered the question; because they are loved ones. Do you consider it wrong even if you get to see them again?
Is it wrong to kill another human?
Everyone has someone who loves them.
Welcome to EvC Recon3rd

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Recon3rd, posted 03-01-2008 8:07 AM Recon3rd has replied

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 51 of 103 (458617)
03-01-2008 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 8:07 AM


Recon3rd writes:
I'm just wondering if the people who do not believe in a higher power like God would mind if someone killed one of their loved ones.
If you would mind, why would you?
As you've defined the person being lost as a "loved one", don't you think that's a rather naive question?
Is it wrong to kill another human?
Self-defense? What about the death penalty? Is there such a thing as justifiable warfare? Could you be asking another naive and not very well thought out question?
Sorry to answer your questions with questions, but don't you think that you need to be a bit clearer about what you mean?
And welcome to EvC, and culture wars without death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Recon3rd, posted 03-01-2008 8:07 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 52 of 103 (458645)
03-01-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 8:07 AM


Re: Kill
Hi Recon3rd,
I'm just wondering if the people who do not believe in a higher power like God would mind if someone killed one of their loved ones.
First to answer your question yes I would mind but, i'll ask a question to you too. Why would a disbelief in gods (Zues, Apollo, Ra, Allah) make you less likely to 'mind' if somone killed a loved one or even a coworker or your neighbor?
Is it wrong to kill another human?
Apparently the only time its justified is when you are killing them in the name of God.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Recon3rd, posted 03-01-2008 8:07 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 103 (458665)
03-01-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 8:07 AM


Re: Kill
I'm just wondering if the people who do not believe in a higher power like God would mind if someone killed one of their loved ones.
Well, I would. Why wouldn't I? It hurts to lose a loved one.
On the other hand, if you knew that the loved one was going to go to heaven, would you mind if someone killed her?
-
Is it wrong to kill another human?
I dunno. Joshua didn't think so as he was conquering Canaan, so maybe it isn't.
Edited by Chiroptera, : typo

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Recon3rd, posted 03-01-2008 8:07 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Recon3rd, posted 03-24-2008 9:20 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5842 days)
Posts: 35
Joined: 03-01-2008


Message 54 of 103 (459656)
03-09-2008 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Vacate
03-01-2008 8:43 AM


Re: Kill
quote:
You answered the question; because they are loved ones. Do you consider it wrong even if you get to see them again?
If evolution is true and there is no God how would I see them again?
quote:
Everyone has someone who loves them.
Do they, everyone, I think not. Animals have an instinct, could be described as love, to protect their young. If a female lion kills it's prey is it wrong? No. So why is it only wrong for men not to kill?

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Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5842 days)
Posts: 35
Joined: 03-01-2008


Message 55 of 103 (461294)
03-24-2008 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by bluegenes
03-01-2008 8:53 AM


bluegenes-
As you've defined the person being lost as a "loved one", don't you think that's a rather naive question?
So other than YOUR love for the person why would you mind? Does it matter if someone kills a pet YOU love, other than the fact that YOU love it? Does it matter if someone kills a chicken you don't love but love to eat?
Self-defense? What about the death penalty? Is there such a thing as justifiable warfare? Could you be asking another naive and not very well thought out question?
Sorry to answer your questions with questions, but don't you think that you need to be a bit clearer about what you mean?
Put what ever reason in front of the killing of another human you want, the question still remains the same, is it wrong to kill another human? If it's wrong, why?
peace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by bluegenes, posted 03-01-2008 8:53 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by bluegenes, posted 03-24-2008 2:27 PM Recon3rd has replied

  
Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5842 days)
Posts: 35
Joined: 03-01-2008


Message 56 of 103 (461298)
03-24-2008 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by onifre
03-01-2008 11:28 AM


Re: Kill
onfire-
First to answer your question yes I would mind but, i'll ask a question to you too. Why would a disbelief in gods (Zues, Apollo, Ra, Allah) make you less likely to 'mind' if somone killed a loved one or even a coworker or your neighbor?
I would think that if there is no God and we evolved from whatever, how is our life more important than another species. Why is it ok to kill an animal for sport and not a human? Is the reason you would mind if someone killed a loved one of yours, YOUR love? So it's only wrong because YOU love them?
peace

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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 03-24-2008 9:22 AM Recon3rd has replied
 Message 60 by teen4christ, posted 03-24-2008 1:44 PM Recon3rd has replied

  
Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 5842 days)
Posts: 35
Joined: 03-01-2008


Message 57 of 103 (461301)
03-24-2008 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Chiroptera
03-01-2008 1:43 PM


Re: Kill
Well, I would. Why wouldn't I? It hurts to lose a loved one.
So other than the fact that YOU love the person it would be ok?
On the other hand, if you knew that the loved one was going to go to heaven, would you mind if someone killed her?
I would miss her but i'd feel she was in a better place and at peace. As far as the killer I'm sure i'd have bitter feelings towards them but i could understand why and with that understanding i couldn't blame them.
peace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Chiroptera, posted 03-01-2008 1:43 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Chiroptera, posted 03-24-2008 9:25 AM Recon3rd has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 103 (461302)
03-24-2008 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Recon3rd
03-24-2008 9:04 AM


Re: Kill
I would think that if there is no God and we evolved from whatever, how is our life more important than another species.
I notice that you use the word "and" which, being a pedant about logic, that your point requires both to be true at the same time.
What about if there is no god, but we didn't evolve from other species. How does that change the answer to the question?
How about if there is a god and we did evolve from another species? What if there is a god and we didn't evolve from another species? Why does either of these two issues affect how we view killing another human, or killing another living organism?

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Recon3rd, posted 03-24-2008 9:04 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Recon3rd, posted 03-26-2008 6:09 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 103 (461303)
03-24-2008 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Recon3rd
03-24-2008 9:20 AM


Re: Kill
So other than the fact that YOU love the person it would be ok?
Well, the question was why I would mind if a loved one was killed. I answered that question.
If you're changing the question to whether I would mind if anyone was killed, then yes, I would mind. The reason would be a bit different, and what I would do about it would depend on the circumstances of the killing (accident, deliberate, self-defense, etc.).

There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what can be done to fix it. This is it: Only nut cases want to be president. -- Kurt Vonnegut

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Recon3rd, posted 03-24-2008 9:20 AM Recon3rd has not replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5798 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 60 of 103 (461326)
03-24-2008 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Recon3rd
03-24-2008 9:04 AM


Re: Kill
Recon3rd writes
quote:
Why is it ok to kill an animal for sport and not a human?
To many of us, killing an animal for sport is not ok. In fact, I consider it downright immoral.
But notice that it's the evangelical and other religious right that get the most kick out of sport hunting. I just find it ironic that it's always the evil liberal atheists that have fought for animal interests.
quote:
I would think that if there is no God and we evolved from whatever, how is our life more important than another species.
If there is no God, human life is more important than other species because we say so. I'm sure when we finally make contact with another alien race, which ever race is more advance will say that its members' lives are more valuable than the other. We need not look far to see this, in fact. The Europeans did declare that the lives of white christians were more valuable than the native american heathens.
quote:
Is the reason you would mind if someone killed a loved one of yours, YOUR love? So it's only wrong because YOU love them?
It is wrong for its own sake.
You seem to imply that the reason it is wrong to murder another human being is because God says so. This is the mentality of a child. When I was little, my mommy forbid me to hit other kids. Back then, I couldn't understand why. But since my mommy threatened me with punishment, I never hit other kids. When I grew up, I began to realize that hitting other people was wrong in it self. I began to have principles.
Recon3rd, if the only reason you live a moral life is because God says so, you are effectively living like a child with a child's mentality. Real adults have principles. Real adults can see the difference between good and evil. Real moral adults don't need the threat of a vengeful God to live moral lives.
PS I speak as a believer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Recon3rd, posted 03-24-2008 9:04 AM Recon3rd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Recon3rd, posted 03-26-2008 5:55 AM teen4christ has replied

  
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