Holistic Doctors, and medicine

Ah yes.My mistake.I think this ... ... may have led me astray.Could you elaborate on "tried and true"?

It appears that you are into a good wholistic regime of mostly good eating. I hope RR is finding this to be helpful.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

btw, buz.Glad to see you checking in.You have yet to respond to Message 57 or Message 104.What say you?

Mobiogirl, I see nothing in 57 as significant begging a response. 104 is Annastasia's message. Abe: Perhaps you could cite something which you'd like for me to address. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

As you wish.57: Oh. My darling. 155 so far. Need I say more?104:Oh lordy. Where is my mind?
I meant 115.After all. You seem to find Dr. Lorraine Day worthy of mention. Do you think NASA is going to relocate the Earth? Or perhaps you subscribe to her "more conventional" beliefs ... say, for example, that "getting medical care and taking medication are a betrayal of God"?ABE:
Speaking of 115. I finally managed to track down this Deborah Ray character. I'll have you know that I had to listen to 3 hours of this woman's prattle before I could find something to research.Apparently, Ms. Ray is quite impressed with the work of Dr. Ellen Langer, a psychologist at Harvard University. Ms. Ray summarized Dr. Langer's research by saying (quote) "That the women in the group, who were told that their work was good exercise and that they met the guidelines for healthy active lifestyle, lost weight, saw their blood pressure drop, saw their body fat drop, they reduced their body mass index, and the other group saw absolutely no changes. So, the conclusion, thinking you got a workout made your body healthier when nothing in your lifestyle changed." (unquote)(http://www.healthradio.net/...ives/20070204/0204_debray1.mp3)The implication being, of course, mind over body.Now. Since Dr. Langer hasn't published this "evidence", I must rely on Ms. Ray's description of the "study". 84 women were included in the "study". 84.Nothing, absolutely nothing, can be inferred from a "study" whose sample size is 84!And then, to make matters worse, this Deborah Ray starts in on "neurotransmitters" and arterial plaque and back pain. In under 30 seconds.So there you have it. According to Ms. Ray, an unpublished "study" of 84 women means the "mind" has absolute control over the body.Your BP, your BMI, your neurotransmitters, your plaque, your pain. Whatever.Ms. Ray doesn't seem to think it's necessary to provide any proof of what she's saying ... which is why I was forced to listen to 3 hours of this crap to find something to research!I'm still workin' on trackin' down ole Dr. O'Hhira. I can only find commercial sites hawking his "evolutionary leap in probiotic science".As far as I can tell, there is no research by "this renowned microbiologist from Japan ... (who was) also named "Best Scientist of the Year". (http://www.naturodoc.com/library/detox/probiotics.htm)Remarkable. Renowned microbiologist. Best scientist. Yet no publications!Perhaps you would be kind enough, dear buz, to provide a link where I might peruse Dr. O'Hhira's voluminous research.Edited by molbiogirl, : research

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You say consult a nutritionist, but then you say I got a bad nutritionist. Doctor recommends them, how does one tell a good one from a bad one?

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The same way you tell a good mechanic, or accountant, or contractor, etc., from a bad one. You get references from patients, you ask about their credentials and philosopy, you do as much research as you can on your particular problem(s), and you see how they are to work with, and if what they do and advise you to do works.I have had to go through quite a few poor mechanics before I found a shop that I thought did a good job.One thing I never considered doing is letting some person with little to no training in auto mechanics and who thinks that adding a lot of their own special mixtures to my gas tank will cure the problems with my brakes work on my car.

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Why does it matter whether I found the answer from a naturopatic source or one you consider science? I came to the same conclusion.

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One "I consider science"? I'm not the arbiter of such things.It isn't difficult, if one is familiar with the basics of scientific method, to determine if a medical information source is science-based or not.The problem is not with this particular problem but with the unscientific approach in general. Sometimes a "natural healing" source is accurate and uses science-based medical knowledge, and sometimes they aren't and don't. Sometimes, they claim things as fact or suggest certain treatments as effective that have no evidence to support them.The rigors of science will simply not allow such things, but folklore and tradition will. The danger is that when they are mixed in a book, especially with no clear indication of which is which, many people begin to believe that the folklore and tradtional treatments have the same weight of evidence behind them as the science. That is simply not the case.

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If you assume that because I found information in a naturopatic source that helped me find the answer that I didn't do any other checking, you'd be wrong.

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I am glad.

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Yes there are and there are still MD's that slip through the cracks.

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Of course humans, and therefore human systems, are not perfect. I am not sure what your point is.Science-based, modern medicine is responsible for the enormous improvement in longevity, general healthiness, elimination or prevention of disease and malnutrition, and plummeting mortality rates of the populations where it had been practiced over the last few centuries. Show me similar, or even marginally close, results for any of the folk and traditional "natural healing" or alternative medical methods, and then I will give them some more respect.

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Just as it took time for those practices to be put in place, it will take time for the same practices to be put in place for the alternative medicines.

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Why? Most of these "natural health" practices are far older than science-based medicine.If we all agree that "alternative" healthcare is, indeed, healthcare, why shouldn't all such healthcare practitioners have to abide by the same laws, have to demonstrate the safety and efficacy of their methods, treatments and drugs, and have the same oversight as the rest of the medical profession?

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Yes people fight against it, just as I'm sure there were those who fought against the practices for the medical profession. Change takes time and unfortunately money plays a big part in how fast some things change.

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Until that time we have to be careful when dealing with alternative health care; but then we still have to be careful even when dealing with traditional health care.

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Sure, but I think you are discounting how vast the gulf is between the liklihood that a given MD is likely to be a quack or incompetant compared to a given "natural healer" or alternative medicine practitioner.Modern medicine is based in evidence. Most of the stuff that falls under "alternative medicine" is not.

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I haven't abandoned reason or science.

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Um, castor oil packs?Just the fact that any "healthcare provider", or you, thinks they do anything is evidence of an abandonment of reason and evidence.

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Just as there are good MD's and bad MD's, there are also good ND's and bad ND's.

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But how do you know? How do you know which ND's are spouting pseudoscientific nonsense and which ones aren't when nothing they do has to be based in science?

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Bottom line, I'm responsible for my health and I have to do what is right for me.

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Sure. And what you think is right for you could very well be wrong.Just so you know, that's what most people who buy into all sorts of pseudoscience and woo-woo say when they can't address the evidence. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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Nothing, absolutely nothing, can be inferred from a "study" whose sample size is 84!

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That's not true.You won't probably see small effects but you can certainly detect larger ones.Emily Rosa, the little girl who tested the nurses who claimed to be able to feel people's "energy" (they were Theraputic Touch" practitioners) without touching them tested only 12 subjects, and her JAMA paper caused quite the stir.It also depends a lot on what you are measuring.

As much as I admire Emily ... Error And after having read the article, it looks like it was a jumping off point for a literature review by Dr. Barrett more than it was a "study".From Emily's JAMA article: JAMA linkNow. It's been a couple of years since I dragged my sorry ass thru statistics.And I have only this Ray character's word to go on (Dr. Langer, 84 women, in Boston ... that's it for identifying characteristics).However. I still maintain one would be hard pressed to consider 84 subjects an adequate sample and the findings statistically significant.Edited by molbiogirl, : poor wording

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I still maintain one would be hard pressed to consider 84 subjects an adequate sample and the findings statistically significant.

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My husband is a cognitive psychologist and has a number of papers published in the professional literature.None of them have anywhere close to that number of subjects.I'll ask you, then, to tell us how many subjects is enough and how do you know?And you know that the person you quoted as critical to Rosa's paper is the nurse who co-founded Theraputic Touch?Of course she's going to attack it.The point is, all of the nurses Emily tested said that they could feel a person's "enegy" without touching them.The paper showed they couldn't.And here's what another TT practitioner quoted in your source said about why Rosa's paper was flawed: Classic pseudoscience and the persecution complex that often accompanies it.

To be quite honest, I don't. I would have to look it up. I can and will do the work, unless, of course, you'd like to help me understand the statistics. Yes. I still thought she had a good point. Yep. They're nutjobs. You're not going to get any argument from me.

Oh....so thats why it cost so much.....

True, but at the same time, I am starting to feel better. So what was it, the herbs?, time? God? Zues?I also started using sinu cleanse 4 days ago, and I think that is helping much. It's just saline water flushed through the nose. A very weird thing to do BTW.But this whole getting better process is taking weeks. And I am not convinced I will continue to get better, I sure hope so.I am going to go to the Dentist next week, and make sure one of my impacted wisdom teeth are not causing it.The allergist told me I am allergic to dust mites, bananas, and pollen and grass. Kind of knew that already.So they tell me, I need another set of tests, guess what, the next appointment is in 2 weeks. What a f*in joke. They should have scheduled both appointments at the same time (2days apart) so I wouldn't have to wait 2 dam weeks.After that, if I still don't feel good, I am going to go to Columbia Hospital in NYC. Or maybe the Mayo clinic, someone suggested to me.

It sounds like your issue is more with the administration/bureaucracy than with the medical treatment itself.It would be a bad idea to go looking for a quick fix. The conventional system hasn't run out of ideas yet.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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The same way you tell a good mechanic, or accountant, or contractor, etc., from a bad one. You get references from patients, you ask about their credentials and philosopy, you do as much research as you can on your particular problem(s), and you see how they are to work with, and if what they do and advise you to do works.

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The mechanics and such tend to give free estimates or consultations. Doctors, dentist, nutritionists, etc. don't. They also aren't going to give out their patients' names. It would be difficult to find that health care professional that has experienced every possible problem. Like I said, each has their place.

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One "I consider science"? I'm not the arbiter of such things.

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You are when you deem what you will accept from opponents.

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Sometimes a "natural healing" source is accurate and uses science-based medical knowledge, and sometimes they aren't and don't.

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Exactly!

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If we all agree that "alternative" healthcare is, indeed, healthcare, why shouldn't all such healthcare practitioners have to abide by the same laws, have to demonstrate the safety and efficacy of their methods, treatments and drugs, and have the same oversight as the rest of the medical profession?

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The people in the position to make those laws, rules, etc. have to do that. It takes time and money.

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Um, castor oil packs?

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Just the fact that any "healthcare provider", or you, thinks they do anything is evidence of an abandonment of reason and evidence.

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Didn't you say: you do as much research as you can on your particular problem(s), and you see how they are to work with, and if what they do and advise you to do works.My ND has an honors degree in Nutritional Science.I don't recall evidence that the castor oil packs have never worked. We did have evidence that they did cause a reaction in the body and there was clinical evidence of results. (I'm not going to look up the specifics or get into the discussion again in this topic.)

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But how do you know? How do you know which ND's are spouting pseudoscientific nonsense and which ones aren't when nothing they do has to be based in science?

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I don't know that an MD isn't spouting pseudoscientific nonsense. That is the dilemma for the average person.We can only do what you suggest: you do as much research as you can on your particular problem(s), and you see how they are to work with, and if what they do and advise you to do works.

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Just so you know, that's what most people who buy into all sorts of pseudoscience and woo-woo say when they can't address the evidence.

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Then you would be wrong, since my statement: was my philosophy long before I even heard of naturopathic alternatives.I haven't abandoned reason or science. My MD gave me a clean bill of health and yes she knows about the ND.I've already agreed that there are extremes, but it will take time to rein in the quacks. But they aren't all quacks.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

There are, however, any number of organizations, professional and governmental, that keep track of MDs. And you have access to that information. Google. To repeat: To repeat: How do you know?There is no regulatory organization.