Define faith?

Schraf it has nothing to do with God talking more, or more clearly to me than my wife, (it is quite the opposite sometimes). It has more to do with the fact that God created man and woman, he created them differently, and he knows how they both work.He created a way for a family to run, knowing the attributes of both halves of his creation.I happen to know God's way works, I've seen it work, it's working for us in our marriage.All I can say Schraf is that it's not the dictatorship you see it as. Right now I'm at a loss to explain my p.o.v much more. I'll ask my wife if she's interested in joining this discussion, maybe she'd be more able to present the case for biblical marriage than I can.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

I think the take-home message is that atheistic government in its extreme form (as in communist regimes) is demonstrably and reproduceably awful, by far exceeding anything seen before. But I guess that is getting off the topic.My point was not that "religious people" are better, just that people seem to get on better when they aren't so sure that there is no God.

Shilo: I completely agree with this post. "Man's inhumanity to Man" can be seen across cultures, religions, and time. It's not even restricted to the ones we're familiar with like European Christians or Middle Eastern Moslems. Ever heard of the eLangeni or Butalezi? No? They were wiped out to a man and their women enslaved by the Zulus under Shaka during the Conquest in the early 19th Century pre-colonization. Just more evidence that humans are violent, territorial primates...

Mine is. What bad consequences do you expect this to bring?

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It has more to do with the fact that God created man and woman, he created them differently, and he knows how they both work.

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Funk, it kills me that you keep posting things like this while insisting that there is no implicit hierarchy. 'Fess up, man! God puts men in charge. That by default puts women in a subservient position. Two people cannot be equal if one has power over the other, whether that relationship be boss/employee, sergeant/private, soldier/conquered, or owner/slave. And this is exactly the situation you describe. No matter how much you want to wiggle out of it, you make the final call and that puts you in a position of power over your wife. There is only one reason God puts men in charge: God considers men to be more capable and valuable. The OT is terribly clear on this one. Leviticus 27:3-7 gives a peculiar price list, for example.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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The wife fascilitates the direction of the husband putting her uniqueness and talents into it and at times she may be crucial in advising a complete change in direction. (The Lord told Abraham 'listen to your wife'). But, yes, she is not democratic joint-head of the family.

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So, what I said was accurate then.You can take advice from your wife if you want to, but she must always take your direction.She never directs you, and she is never an equal democratic partner.Is that correct?

Exactly. John, exactly.If you aren't equal, BY DEFINITION the power is unequal, and you have it because you are the man.Sorry, it seems that my original assesment still stands:When Funky and his wife, or TB and his wife, or Sattcom and his wife have a disagreement, they always win because they are the leader of their families.So far, TB has been the most honest about it, although he keeps trying unsuccessfuly to soften it and restate it.So farm nobody has been able to tell me how one submits and leads at the same time, either.

Yes, that's a good question.I had stated before that I would be hurt and insulted if my husband thought he could just unilaterally make a big descision about our lives, and that it would violate our partnership and mutual respect.I was wondering about the respect you have for your wives.If you can ultimately tell them what to do, and if, ultimately, you can always win any disagreement because you have the God-bestowed leadership role, then can you say you really respect your wife?I mean respect for her as a person.

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Schraf it has nothing to do with God talking more, or more clearly to me than my wife, (it is quite the opposite sometimes).

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Then I don't understand why you need a leader and therefore, by definition, a follower.

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It has more to do with the fact that God created man and woman, he created them differently, and he knows how they both work.

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Are you saying that men always make better leaders and women don't, and that women always make better followers, and men don't?

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He created a way for a family to run, knowing the attributes of both halves of his creation.

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Well, if this is true then how do you explain the higher than average divorce statistics for the Christian denominations that most closely follow the "women must submit to their husbands", and "husbands must lead the family" prescription?Furthermore, how do you explain the lower than average divorce statistics for the Christian denominations and non-believers which do not insist that the women submit and the men be the leaders?

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I happen to know God's way works, I've seen it work, it's working for us in our marriage.

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Again, this does not seem to be the case overall, when you look at divorce statistics across the denominations.

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All I can say Schraf is that it's not the dictatorship you see it as.

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I don't see it as a dictatorship. It is more subtle than that. It is a hierarchy, though, with God at the top, followed by you, followed by your wife. If you get to have the final say, then you HAVE THE FINAL SAY, right?

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Right now I'm at a loss to explain my p.o.v much more. I'll ask my wife if she's interested in joining this discussion, maybe she'd be more able to present the case for biblical marriage than I can.

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I would be intersested inthat, and I appreciate the efforts you have made so far.

There's no way to truely explain biblical life to a person who does not believe in God. You have no reference point..no grid with which to assimilate that information.Schraf, you seem to take offense at Christian living when you no understanding of it. Is it your hatred of Christians themselves, or do you despise the economy of God? (or your understanding of the economy of God, since you don't believe in Him)If it's the Christians themselves that you have problems with, well that's understandable. Christians are always going to fall short when compared to the ideals they hold high. We are only human. God knows this and shows us grace. It's the athiests who enjoy tearing a struggling Christian apart.If it is God's word that you take offense with, how do you expect to get the answers you seek? Christians often time dont know why it works, just that it does. If you want to know "why" ask God yourself. We KNOW it works, we KNOW He exists, and we KNOW that the bible is written by men devinely inspired by God. We know these things because of an intimate relationship with Jesus that we have that other people do not.We don't have to PROVE God exists to you. He exists depite your belief in Him. So what's the point in arguring? Do your bogus marriage statistics disprove God? No. Does your hatred of the biblical husband and wife relationship show God as being unloving or sexist? Maybe it does to you. We believe His way is right, because we know Him, and His intentions for us are always good, kind and loving. You don't understand nor will you understand it unless you know him.As always, you are free to say what you want, but you don't know God so you can't speak with any authority on the subject.[This message has been edited by Arachnid, 02-04-2003]

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There's no way to truely explain biblical life to a person who does not believe in God. You have no reference point..no grid with which to assimilate that information.

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I was a believer for the first 19 years of my life.

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Schraf, you seem to take offense at Christian living when you no understanding of it.

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You are right about my not understanding. That's why I am trying to get these people to explain it to me. I don't inderstand how one person is leader but there is no hierarchy. I do not understand how two people submit to each other but there is still a leader.These things seem to be utterly illogical, so I am trying to get an explanation.

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Is it your hatred of Christians themselves, or do you despise the economy of God? (or your understanding of the economy of God, since you don't believe in Him)

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Strawman and Ad Hominem.

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If it's the Christians themselves that you have problems with, well that's understandable. Christians are always going to fall short when compared to the ideals they hold high. We are only human. God knows this and shows us grace. It's the athiests who enjoy tearing a struggling Christian apart.

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I'm not tearing anybody apart. I'm just trying to understand how someone can be a leader and submit at the same time.

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If it is God's word that you take offense with, how do you expect to get the answers you seek?

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By asking the Christians who say they are following God's word to explain things to me. So far, they haven't made much sense to me.

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Christians often time dont know why it works, just that it does.

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Except that, in the specific case of the wives submitting to their husbands and the hubands leading the family, it doesn't seem to be working according to the statistics I cited.The Southern Baptists and non-denominational Protestants (who are the most strict in the sumission and leadership gender roles) have a higher divorce rate than the national average. Lutherans, Catholics, Atheists and Agnostics (who don't have explicit submission and leadership gender roles) have a divorce rate which is lower than the national average.So far, nobody has meaningfully challenged the validity of the statistics. They were collected and published by a respected Christian resarch group.

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If you want to know "why" ask God yourself. We KNOW it works, we KNOW He exists, and we KNOW that the bible is written by men devinely inspired by God. We know these things because of an intimate relationship with Jesus that we have that other people do not.

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In that case, I KNOW that the Great Galactic Goat created the entire universe is just as valid a claim as yours.Sorry, the claim, "I KNOW that the marriage hierarchy proposed by the Southern Baptists works" is testable, and it doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence.The evidence of who wrote the Bible is pretty sketchy at best, and the evidence that they were divinely-inspired isn't testable, so that's just belief.

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We don't have to PROVE God exists to you.

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No you don't, but I'm not talking about that right now.I am examining the claim, originally made by TB, that the marriage model where the wife submits to the husband in all things and the husband is the leader of the family is actually a successful model.

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He exists depite your belief in Him.

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So sez you.

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So what's the point in arguring? Do your bogus marriage statistics disprove God?

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Please provide evidence that the statistics are flawed or invalid in any way. They are not renderd false just because you say they are and want them to be, sorry.BTW, I wasn't trying to disprove God.I was discussing the marriage model that TB put forth as the best way for all people.

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No. Does your hatred of the biblical husband and wife relationship show God as being unloving or sexist?

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Strawman. Ad Hominem.

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Maybe it does to you. We believe His way is right, because we know Him, and His intentions for us are always good, kind and loving. You don't understand nor will you understand it unless you know him.

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Ah, insider thinking. The only people worthy to comment upon any religious practice are those who are believers in that religious practice.The funny thing is that I have been trying to get TB and Funky and Satcomm to explain things to me all this time. So far, they haven't been very logical, and TB in particular has repeatedly tried to soften and back away from his initial statements.The thing is, either a hierarchey exists or it doesn't. They are trying to tell me it doesn't, but then they say that they lead their family. I am trying to get them to explain to me how it is that someone can have no hierarchy, yet they lead, or how it is that they submit to each other, yet they lead.If they want to say that there is a hierarchy and that wives do not get equal say in a marriage, like TB very honestly has, then I would accept that and respect their honesty. I would also have to conclude that the relationship, by nature, is a parent/child, or superior/inferior type relationship.

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As always, you are free to say what you want, but you don't know God so you can't speak with any authority on the subject.

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I don't have to know god to point out the illogic in their arguments.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-05-2003]

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I was a believer for the first 19 years of my life.

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As you have stated many times before, you grew up in a catholic household thereby being "Christian" by default. Since you have not experienced a relationship with Jesus, your belief in Him was superficial. I don't think this qualifies you for saying you "used to be Christian". Christianity is not some club you join (well, for some it is...but that's not real Christianity) Christianity is a statement of faith based on a true knowledge of Christ.

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In that case, I KNOW that the Great Galactic Goat created the entire universe is just as valid a claim as yours.

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Do you have an intimate relationship with a Great Galactic goat or are you just SAYING it? See that's the difference. We have a relationship with Jesus. He speaks to us. That's how we know.

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Sorry, the claim, "I KNOW that the marriage hierarchy proposed by the Southern Baptists works" is testable, and it doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence.

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Ummm.... Who said that?? I never said that. I don't know where the southern baptists fit into this debate... I'm not southern baptist so I have no idea what they are saying or why you are refering to them.

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Please provide evidence that the statistics are flawed or invalid in any way. They are not renderd false just because you say they are and want them to be, sorry.

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Since this is YOUR claim I don't have to prove that it's wrong, you have to prove that it's right. Heck, if we wanna do it your way, I am Thor, mighty god of thunder...prove me wrong

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I don't have to know god to point out the illogic in their arguments.

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That's true, however it is not their ARGUMENTS that make it right or true. We believe God's way to be true whether we can defend it it to your satisfaction or not.

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So sez you.

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Yup

As to the statistics you cited Schraf, I'm kind of thinking that this high divorce rate is due to the abuse of this doctine.Unfortunately this is a doctrine that gets abused by controlling men, who's only purpose in citing this doctrine is to scare their families into submission.I have run into a few people in my life time who have grown up in families where some sorry excuse for a man has abused this doctrine in attempt to control their spouse.This does not make this doctrine wrong.It's like saying hate is wrong. Hate is not wrong. Where you direct that hate can be wrong. If you hate the people who were involved in the 9/11 attacks that is wrong. If you hate what they did but not the people, that's alright, God hates sin.So just because this doctrine is applied in a wrong way, does not make it a wrong doctrine.Curious just where these statistics were taken. (area data was collected)------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 02-05-2003]

Given that we can neither prove nor disprove to one another the truth of our various beliefs, the only way this discussion can progress is to examine the effects those beliefs have in practice.If a certain doctrine is vulnerable to abuse because there is nothing to prevent controlling people from taking advantage of it, then the doctrine may reasonably be regarded as flawed for practical purposes, no matter how attractive some may find it as an idea.I know from my own experience that an approach based on equality can work very well. It can also give moral support to someone who is being bullied.

SchrafCorrect