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Author Topic:   How does science disprove the Bible?
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 211 of 310 (409352)
07-08-2007 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by ICANT
07-08-2007 8:58 PM


Re: Genesis is a Myth
ICANT writes:
So what is the problem with that?
The order is contrary to the evidence that the fossil record, geological record and molecular biology demonstrate. In fact, they are contrary to the order of Genesis 1. Why would you trust a "scientific document" that contradicts itself in the first two chapters?
It is a myth or poetry if you will. It reads just like other origin myths.
Further Males were not created first! If anything from a modern biological perspective males can be redundant. Females of many organism forgo the male such as whiptail lizard. Males are expendable females are primary.
ICANT writes:
I am having a hard time finding any proof that Genesis account 2:4-4:26 is false. I read a lot of statements which are exactly what the account says. But I see no proof they are false.
Are you saying they are false because you say they are false?
No, I am saying they the Genesis account does not match up with the physical evidence.
I really doubt you have objective and rationally "looked for proof that Genesis is false".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by ICANT, posted 07-08-2007 8:58 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 212 of 310 (409353)
07-08-2007 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by jar
07-08-2007 10:40 AM


Re: Re-long day
quote:
All of Joshua is but folk tales. There was no Conquest of Canaan as described in Joshua.
My reading of it says the OT is the most true, correct and honest document in existence - even compared with any other writings in its own spacetime, or 2000 years later with Hellenism, Romanism, Cristianity and Islam: all these include miracles - but all do NOT include the same historical veracity. Whether some miracles listed are percieved or illusionary is not the issue here - these are pervasive for the period, and should not be singled out as the overiding portrayal - else we will have no historical data to refer to. What is evident is it is presented in an exacting and advanced literature way ahead of its time and the current world at large, with an attention to detail and historical descriptions not seen anywhere else.
While miracles are listed and not accountable, the name of who Joshua married (a canaanite), and the descriptions of that event's cultures, traditions, diets and beliefs, as well as the cities and kings - are accurate and largely verified, as is the fact this land was ruled by the Israelites till 586 bce, with records of judges, kings and historical events displayed in periodial spaces of books 100 years apart. The battle conducted by Deborah, for example, in the follow-up to Joshua, also gives credence to the report this war lasted 150 years, and culminated when King David was finally able to conquer the Philistines at Gaza - one of the many invading peoples in this area: it is very credible this war would have lasted a long time. Prior to Deborah, figures such as Samson had battles with the Philistines, but was not successful in dispelling them - the historical descriptions here have been verified, including that the philistines introduced iron and formidable iron weaponry which no nation could match, and that this peoples worshipped a diety called Dagon, and built a huge underground city at gaza, which included a temple and statue of dagon. The Philistine nation is not mentioned again after David vanquished it.
The invasion by babylon in 586 bce and the exile there, is not a questionable issue - and this history is known only by the Israelite writings. There is a reason why this is the world's most believed document, despite a continuous battle with its writers and adherents to assume its heritage by the peoples and nations in its area: why would this area's peoples aspire so it if there were doubts of its veracity? These writings have become a measuring rod for archeologists and scholars almost exclusively.
Where can we find a historical description with follow-up writings for 2000 years, aligning with every sector of its texts, and backed by other adversarial nations in different languages, and by follow-up historical relics - and not a single disputation from any of its surrounding nations - name one of equivalence elsewhere - select any period you like in geo-history? Check the historical writings of Greece, Persia, Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians - or even the NT and Quran, and far away eastern writings - all of these include miracles even 2000 years later (even upto the Quran writings)- there is no historical comparison - no historical names, places or dates are verifiable in those writings. We cannot even confirm the birthdate of Jesus today, or verify a single gospel writings as contemporary for centures from its asserted dates - yet 2 billion people accept it as historical. This is not the case with the OT writings. We know that 250 years after Joshua, King David established Jerusalem after finally conquering the Philistines, and that his son built a temple there 2950 years ago.
The world would hardly know of canaan and its surrounds but for these writings, which have been vindicated to an extent not seen elsewhere. To say that 'ALL' is folk tales says more of its sayer than anything else. Your opinion here has no relevence. Let's hope you don't read science the same way?
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 07-08-2007 10:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5942 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 213 of 310 (409354)
07-08-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by ICANT
07-08-2007 9:24 PM


Re: Prediction
ICANT writes:
If that does not happen, you win.
I predict ICANT you will die and not see paradise if you worship a polytheistic religion and deny Allah as the only God. Granting Godhood to a prophet is blasphemous.
I would suggest some Sunday school for you ICANT
Pascal's wager - Wikipedia
Check out the rebuttal section.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5980 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 214 of 310 (409355)
07-08-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Doddy
07-08-2007 8:30 PM


Doddy writes:
Which means that, as I said, science then doesn't disprove the Bible, it just offers more parsimonious explanations for some things (that the Bible wasn't true but is a myth).
The Bible is myth? I will be obnoxious for a sec.
The Bible contains myth, legend, records, allegory, metaphor, and poetry.
Some stories may have more basis in reality, others less. The collection as a whole can be taken as a history of God's interaction with man, through MAN'S eyes. Some things happened, which people believed were important. They were never recorded infallibly, and they were subject to the same restrictions of knowledge which all men were at the time. Bible readers now should understand that we still simply BELIEVE that these stories are important. We have faith in our own experiences of God, and we have faith that the Israelites were able to recognize God's works.
Is Genesis still important? Sure. It is fascinating to see how far back our beliefs in Good and Evil, in God's law, in temptation, and sin, really go. We take that for granted, but if those things are real, it would be very important to record them. The medium of myth doesn't take away from that importance.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 215 of 310 (409356)
07-08-2007 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by IamJoseph
07-08-2007 9:44 PM


Re: Re-long day
The world would hardly know of canaan and its surrounds but for these writings, which have been vindicated to an extent not seen elsewhere. To say that 'ALL' is folk tales says more of its sayer than anything else. Your opinion here has no relevence. Let's hope you don't read science the same way?
If someday I give my opinion, feel free to comment on it.
All of the evidence shows that the Conquest of Canaan never happened as described in Joshua.
The Armana Tablets prove it.
Archeology proves it.
It simply never happened just as the Exodus never happened as described and the Flood never happened.
Them ain't opinions. Thems facts.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by IamJoseph, posted 07-08-2007 9:44 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by IamJoseph, posted 07-08-2007 10:25 PM jar has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 216 of 310 (409357)
07-08-2007 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Chiroptera
07-08-2007 6:05 PM


Re: An explanation of the attempted point.
I am wondering why the miracle explanation is even a serious contender as a possibility.
If it was not a miracle it could not have happened.
sidelined explained that pretty well.
We are bound by the laws of gravity and physics.
God the creator is not bound by laws He made. He could suspend any law He desired to.
Chiroptera, a miracle is no more of a big deal to me than someone telling a lie. In other words I have no problem believing God can do anything He desires.
BTW Sorry if I was putting words in your mouth earlier, I was just going on what I have gathered from your posts in the threads I have posted in.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2007 6:05 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 217 of 310 (409359)
07-08-2007 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by iceage
07-08-2007 9:46 PM


Position and Topic
Iceage and ICant,
Please focus your discussion on the topic and not on each other.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 218 of 310 (409361)
07-08-2007 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by iceage
07-08-2007 9:39 PM


Re: Genesis is a Myth
quote:
Further Males were not created first! If anything from a modern biological perspective males can be redundant. Females of many organism forgo the male such as whiptail lizard. Males are expendable females are primary.
Read the text more carefully, as you would a science doument, it is just as exacting. Genesis does not say the male came first, nor does your assertion the female came first have any credence. Genesis says both male and female were one 'originally' - or that one life form contained both genders at inception: how else can you derive a male or female offshoot - from 'it just happened': what happened to empirical science here? Genesis also says the first dual-gendered entity was able to separate as male or femele: there is no alternative to this described process.
When genesis says Adam was referred to first, it must be understood here adam signifies a dual-gendered human - not a male; thereafter Eve represents a female or counter gender when separated. 'Adam' is both a generic human, and a Pronoun later - when the text is properly read; you have not factored in the verse, 'MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM' (a dual-gendered life form).
quote:
No, I am saying they the Genesis account does not match up with the physical evidence.
I really doubt you have objective and rationally "looked for proof that Genesis is false".
But your example is not correct, displaying only a less than adequate comprehension of its texts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 9:39 PM iceage has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 219 of 310 (409362)
07-08-2007 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jar
07-08-2007 9:54 PM


Re: Re-long day
quote:
jar:
All of the evidence shows that the Conquest of Canaan never happened as described in Joshua.
The Armana Tablets prove it.
Archeology proves it.
Armana does the reverse. So does archeology:
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: THE BIBLE VS THE QURAN (KORAN)
AN HISTORICAL COMPARISON
BY
JAY, A WEBSITE STUDY
BIBLE'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE
[B] THE BIBLE'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE:
(1900=Abraham, 1700=Joseph, 1447=Moses, 1000=David)
The documentary evidence for the reliability of the Bible has been an area of research which has been increasing rapidly over the last few decades. But this hasn't always been so. The assumption by many former archaeologists was that the Old Testament was written not in the tenth to fourteenth centuries B.C. by the authors described within its text, but by later Jewish historians during the much later second to sixth century B.C., and that the stories were then redacted back onto the great prophets such as Moses and David, etc... Yet, with the enormous quantity of data which has been uncovered and is continuing to be uncovered, as well as the new forensic research methods being employed to study them, what we are now finding is that many of these preconceived notions of authorship are simply no longer valid.
For instance:
(1) THE LAWS OF HAMMURBI
The skeptics contended that the Pentateuch could not have been written by Moses, because there was no evidence of any writing that early. Then the Black Stele was found with the detailed laws of Hammurabi which were written 300 years before Moses, and in the same region.
(2) THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS
There was much doubt as to the reliability of the Old Testament documents, since the oldest manuscript in our possession was the Massoretic Text, written in 916 A.D. How, the skeptics asked, can we depend on a set of writings whose earliest manuscripts are so recent? Then came the amazing discoveries of the Dead Sea Scrolls written around 125 B.C. These scrolls show us that outside of minute copying errors it is identical to the Massoretic Text and yet it predates it by over 1,000 years! We have further corroboration in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew text, translated around 150-200 B.C.
Yet to please the skeptics, the best documentary evidence for the reliability of the Biblical text must come from documents external to the Biblical text themselves. There has always been doubt concerning the stories of Abraham and the Patriarchs found in the books attributed to Moses, the Pentateuch. The skeptics maintained that there is no method of ascertaining their reliability since we have no corroboration from external secular accounts. This has all changed; for instance:
(3) DISCOVERIES AT NUZU, MARI AND ASSYRIAN, HITTITE, SUMERIAN AND ESHUNNA CODES
Discoveries from excavations at Nuzu, Mari and Assyrian, Hittite, Sumerian and Eshunna Codes point out that Hebrew poetry, Mosaic legislation as well as the Hebrew social customs all fit the period and region of the patriarchs.
(4) INSCRIPTIONS OF HITTITE CIVILIZATION
According to the historians there were no Hittites at the time of Abraham, thus the historicity of the Biblical accounts describing them was questionable. Now we know from inscriptions of that period that there were 1,200 years of Hittite civilization, much of it corresponding with the Patriarchal period.
(5) HORITES DISCOVERED
Historians also told us that no such people as the Horites existed. It is these people whom we find mentioned in the genealogy of Esau in Genesis 36:20. Yet now they have been discovered as a group of warriors also living in Mesopotamia during the Patriarchal period.
(6) SIXTH CENTURY EAST INDIA INSCRIPTION
The account of Daniel, according to the sceptical historians, must have been written in the second century and not the sixth century B.C. because of all the precise historical detail found in its content. Yet now the sixth century's East India Inscription corresponds with the Daniel 4:30 account of Nebuchadnezzar's building, proving that the author of Daniel must have been an eye-witness from that period. Either way it is amazing.
The strongest case for extra-Biblical corroboration of the Patriarchal period is found in four sets of tablets which have been and are continuing to be uncovered from that area of the world. They demonstrate that the Biblical account is indeed historically reliable. Let's briefly look at all four sets of tablets.
(7) ARMANA TABLETS
*Armana tablets: (from Egypt) mention the Habiru or Apiru in Hebrew, which was first applied to Abraham in Genesis 14:13.
(8) ELBA TABLETS
*Ebla tablets: 17,000 tablets from Tell Mardikh (Northern Syria), dating from 2300 B.C., shows us that a thousand years before Moses, laws, customs and events were recorded in writing in that part of the world, and that the judicial proceedings and case laws were very similar to the Deuteronomy law code (i.e. Deuteronomy 22:22-30 codes on punishment for sex offenses). One tablet mentions and lists the five cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar in the exact sequence which we find in Genesis 14:8! Until these tablets were uncovered the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah had always been in doubt by historians.
(9) MARI TABLETS
*Mari tablets: (from the Euphrates) mentions king Arriyuk, or Arioch of Genesis 14, and lists the towns of Nahor and Harran (from Genesis 24:10), as well as the names Benjamin and Habiru.
(10) NUZI TABLETS
*Nuzi tablets: (from Iraq) speaks about a number of customs which we find in the Pentateuch, such as:
a) a barren wife giving a handmaiden to her husband (i.e. Hagar)
b) a bride chosen for the son by the father (i.e. Rebekah)
c) a dowry paid to the father-in-law (i.e. Jacob)
d) work done to pay a dowry (i.e. Jacob)
e) the unchanging oral will of a father (i.e. Isaac)
f) a father giving his daughter a slave-girl (i.e. Leah, Rachel)
g) the sentence of death for stealing a cult gods (i.e. Jacob).
Because of these extra-Biblical discoveries many of the historians are now changing their position. Thus Joseph Free states: "New discoveries now show us that a host of supposed [Biblical] errors and contradictions are not errors at all: such as, that Sargon existed and lived in a palatial dwelling 12 miles north of Ninevah, that the Hittites were a significant people, that the concept of a sevenfold lamp existed in the early Iron Age, that a significant city given in the record of David's empire lies far to the north, and that Belshazzar existed and ruled over Babylon."
While documentary evidence for the Bible in the form of secular inscriptions and tablets not only corroborates the existence of some of the oldest Biblical traditions, similar and more recent documentary evidence (such as the Doctrina Iacobi, and the Armenian Chronicler) eradicates some of the more cherished Islamic traditions, that Islam was a uniquely Arab creation, and that Mecca, the supposed centre for Islam, has little historicity whatsoever before or during the time of Muhammad.
We look forward to further documentary discoveries coming to light, as they continue to substantiate and underline the Biblical record, while simultaneously putting doubt to the record of the Qur'an. Let's now look at the archaeological evidence for both the Bible and the Qur'an:
Contd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 07-08-2007 9:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by jar, posted 07-08-2007 10:42 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 220 of 310 (409364)
07-08-2007 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by anastasia
07-08-2007 9:46 PM


quote:
anastasia
The Bible contains myth, legend, records, allegory, metaphor, and poetry.
Some stories may have more basis in reality, others less.
There are unaccountable mircales - presented as such. But I have not encountered any historical items (aside from unprovable miracles) - as myth, legend, allegory or metaphoric: whatever is portrayed as historical appears so. None here have pointed to a single item ouside what is described as a miracle, as being confirmed as dis-historical. What we see is a dismal reading of texts, and an obsession to single out the OT - when this is the most reliable document in existence - by period of time, volume of works and by verifiability of content measurements.
Perhaps 2000 years from today, Israel's return in '48 will be described as a miracle - depending on the mode of reporting and understanding - but none can dispute the historical factors when and how Israel returned. Historicity is not negated by embellishments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by anastasia, posted 07-08-2007 9:46 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by anastasia, posted 07-09-2007 12:04 AM IamJoseph has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 421 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 221 of 310 (409365)
07-08-2007 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by IamJoseph
07-08-2007 10:25 PM


Re: Re-long day
I'm sorry but your authority is simply full of shit. The Armana tablets mention Habiru but that has nothing to do with Hebrews. It is a generic term used much like the term gypsy for people from all over the area that were mainly gangsters for hire. The term Hebrew does not appear in any of the Armana Tablets and the term Habiru or Apiru does not appear in Genesis 14:13.
Further, in the Armana Tablets the Habiru are not a conquering army but rather mercenaries available for hire by either side.
That kind of bullshit might cut it on some forums but that dog ain't gonna hunt here. Believe it or not, some of us have actually read the material and not just the crap put out by folk like your source.
The rest of your post is simply cut and paste nonsense that even begins with false statements.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by IamJoseph, posted 07-08-2007 10:25 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 222 of 310 (409366)
07-08-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by iceage
07-08-2007 9:39 PM


Re: Genesis is a Myth
The order is contrary to the evidence that the fossil record, geological record and molecular biology demonstrate.
That is easy to say.
But you still haven't told me when Genesis 1:1 took place.
Until you could do that you cannot prove we are talking about the same events or time frame.
You see my problem is I believe Genesis 1:1 took place a long time ago. Everything in Genesis 2:4-4:26 took place the same day as it claims in Genesis 2:4. You say no way, that covers too many years.
Well there was no night created yet so there was only light. There was no time as there was nothing to mark time. So for a very long extended time there was only day. Something happened and then we find the earth in the mess it is in in Genesis 1:2 and then we have the 7 days of Moses.
In Message 191 I proposed a hypothetical no one comented.
So I ask again.
If Genesis 1:1 took place 13.7 billion years ago.
Then 5 billion years ago the earth melted with fervent heat. (everything became molten lava)
The earth then cooled over a period of time.
Would there be any trace of what happened on earth before the meltdown and would it be possible to date the rock past the meltdown?
I really doubt you have objective and rationally "looked for proof that Genesis is false".
There is no proof only suggestions and accertions.
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by iceage, posted 07-08-2007 9:39 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by iceage, posted 07-09-2007 1:19 AM ICANT has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5980 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 223 of 310 (409367)
07-09-2007 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by IamJoseph
07-08-2007 10:36 PM


IamJoseph writes:
Perhaps 2000 years from today, Israel's return in '48 will be described as a miracle - depending on the mode of reporting and understanding - but none can dispute the historical factors when and how Israel returned. Historicity is not negated by embellishments.
History plus embellishments is usually called legend. Throw in too many embellishments, and whatever history was there can become unrecognizable. If something has the characteristics of a myth, of a legend, of an allegory, why not just call it thusly?
{I distinguish a difference in what we may interpret as figurative language or metaphor, and what was written as such.}
My personal belief is that the events of the Bible were based around some historical happening. There is the option that A., stories were made up to explain something observed, or B., something observed gradually moved into the realm of myth. We get a little of both in the Bible, but I can't very well check my belief that some stories were historical with all of those embellishments included. Sometimes there are plot devices, sometimes it seems like the authors themselves didn't believe what they'd heard, so they made up some filler. Like with Noah. Don't you think it crossed someone's mind that a world-wide flood story would be pretty stupid, so they quickly added in the animals in their version?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by IamJoseph, posted 07-08-2007 10:36 PM IamJoseph has replied

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 224 of 310 (409368)
07-09-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by jar
07-08-2007 10:42 PM


Re: Re-long day
quote:
jar:
I'm sorry but your authority is simply full of shit. The Armana tablets mention Habiru but that has nothing to do with Hebrews. It is a generic term used much like the term gypsy for people from all over the area that were mainly gangsters for hire. The term Hebrew does not appear in any of the Armana Tablets and the term Habiru or Apiru does not appear in Genesis 14:13.
Further, in the Armana Tablets the Habiru are not a conquering army but rather mercenaries available for hire by either side.
The term habiru is both a generic usage of the region, identified with the exact spacetime of the Hebrews - and that they were a wondering peoples; as well as a reference of the hebrews which identifies with it. The difference in pronounciation is due to differing languages, while the alphabetic consonants are the same; the hebrew was alphabetic and the other writings were not. The references of a lawless peoples is either directed at the area generically, or else is a standard mode of disdain by the ancient egyptians towards the hebrews - which is easilly evidenced as an historical tradition of dispute and disdain: ancient egypt was notorious for erasing any negative references and in one tablet mentions destroying Israel - which is clearly false. You have selected one item while disregarding the entirety, as well as condoned the traditional discrpencies of egyptian writings against a long historical thread of far more verifiable Hebrew writings spanning 2000 years. This renders your scientific depictions as faulty as your historical understandings.
However, this singular and limited variation, or contrived variation, does not negate a host of other factors which clearly evidence that the Hebrews were in canaan and in Egypt: the armana tablets are 1 of a parcel of some 60 other documents, and in its entirety fully negates your use of BS here. The operative question is that one variance does not negate 100s, and so you have to identify the premise you are wrong, and what this means in terms of the Israelites in Canaan for a period of 1000 years - until the invasion of Babylon - which was over-turned 70 years later, and then prevailed until the destruction by Rome in 70 CE?
The Name ”Hebrew’ in Archaeology and in Scripture
http://www.geocities.com/genesiscommentary/hebrews.html
In the ancient Biblical world of the Ancient Near East there are constant references in texts to persons known as SA.GAZ (in cuneiform), as Hapiru/Habiru in Mesopotamia and as ”prw in Egypt ( the ” is a hard H and the w is a plural ending). While the SA.GAZ are not necessarily specifically Hapiru/Habiru (for they are never to our knowledge treated as equivalent in the lists of ancient lexicographers) they are often identified with them. Thus the terms are not synonymous but the SA.GAZ can be Hapiru in certain circumstances.
The ”prw are identified with the Hapiru in the Amarna letters from the king of Jerusalem and with the SA.GAZ by other correspondents. We are not, however, to think of these Hapiru/Habiru/”prw as a specific race or nation, but rather it appears to be a name for stateless peoples as they come into contact with the major civilisations, and can mean different things in different contexts as it is a useful way of describing people with no other identity. They are witnessed to from the third millennium BC down to the tenth century BC.
The SA.GAZ indicates two cuneiform signs giving no recognised meaning. The term is found in Sumerian literature but has no meaning in Sumerian. It is equated in literature with the Akkadian habbatu which means a ”brigand’ or ”highway robber’, but is probably derived from the Akkadian word saggasu which means ”aggressor’. The SA.GAZ are therefore seen as fierce and ”lawless’ people, i.e. not obeying the laws of others.
In the third dynasty of Ur they are described as ”these unclothed people, who travel in dead silence, who destroy everything, whose menfolk go where they will, --- they establish their tents and their camps --- they spend their time in the countryside without observing the decrees of my king Shulgi’. They are therefore people who live on the edge of society and are a law to themselves.
The word also appears in the nineteenth century BC in administrative texts in Southern Mesopotamia where one text calls them the Hapiri. Here they are soldiers with a chief, and receive supplies of food. In a similar text in Susa in Elam they are recorded as having sheep supplied to them as well as to other groups, they and the others being identified as ”soldiers of the West’. They would appear therefore in these cases to be mercenaries.
In the sixteenth/fifteenth century BC they are again equated with the Hapiru, but this time more fully, and here they are soldiers, or even quarrymen, under the orders of SA.GAZ leaders. One SA.GAZ from Tapduwa has 15 soldiers under him, a SA.GAZ chief from Sarkuhe has 29, and another has 1,436. They can form separate groupings by themselves. By now therefore the term SA.GAZ equates to Hapiru.
Later they are clearly equated with the Hapiru in the Amarna letters where some call them the SA.GAZ while the king of Jerusalem calls them the Hapiru. SA.GAZ is seen as a somewhat pejorative term. They are seen as operative not only in Syria, but also in Phoenicia, near Sumur, Batrun and Byblos, in Upe near Damascus, and further South as far as Jerusalem.
Around the fifteenth century BC six hundred SA.GAZ are elsewhere ”given’ to the ”god of the temple’ just as Rameses III will later give the ”prw to the Egyptian temples of the Delta.
A century or so later Mursilis II (c.1334-1306 BC), in an arbitration treaty between Duppi-Teshub of Amurru amd Tudhaliya of Carchemish, recalls that the town of Jaruwatta in the land of Barga had been captured by the king of the Hurrian country and had been given to ”the grandfather of Tette, the SA.GAZ’. Mursilus returns the town to Abiradda whom the SA.GAZ had dispossessed.
So they have now become among other things mercenary soldiers or marauding bands of soldiers, and can enjoy a partially settled existence.
While in post Old Testament times ”the Hebrew language’ means the language of the Jews, and everyone thus relates the term ”Hebrews’ to the Jews, this is a late identification. In the Old Testament Israelites were Israelites, not Hebrews, except, rarely, when viewed in relation to external peoples. The one possible exception to this is the ”Hebrew servant’, of which more later (Exodus 21.2; Deuteronomy 15.12 compare Jeremiah 34.9, 14).
Apart from this latter use, and a single use related to Abram, the term is limited to three sections, two relating to servitude in Egypt and one relating to dealings with the Philistines who were non-Semites. There is one further exception to this and that is the use by Jonah to describe himself to foreign sailors.
The description Abram ”the Hebrew’ - in Genesis 14.13 - is contained in a covenant narrative confirming the covenant between Abram and Melchizedek. Abram is called ”Abram the Hebrew’ as a (potential) leader of a military force who is part of a confederation. As Abram was stateless (contrast ”Amre’ who is called ”the Amorite’) this method of identifying him may be seen as of some significance, as it ties in with the use of the terms ”apiru and habiru elsewhere of stateless military leaders. In adminstrative texts in Southern Mesopotamia the SA.GAZ or ”Hapiri’ are independent soldiers under a chief who receive supplies of food, as Abram does in Genesis 14, as are the ”Hapiru’ from texts from Mari (to the West of Babylonia). Melchizedech may well therefore have seen him as an Hapiru.
Joseph the Hebrew The next use of the term is in Genesis 39.14, 17; 41.12 where Joseph is called ”an Hebrew’ or a ”Hebrew servant’ by Egyptians. And Joseph himself uses the term when identifying himself to Egyptians when he says ”I was stolen from the land of the Hebrews’ (Genesis 40.15). The ”land of the Hebrews’ is ”the place of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites’ (Exodus 3.8), a land without political unity.
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The 60 Tablets
As it is, the documents are chosen with care and explained with concise text, exemplifying what we know of the several cultures within and against which the dramas of the bible were played out. The introduction is an enlightenment in itself, and one section is outstanding, being a short description and explanation of the scripts in which the ancient texts were written. It de-mystifies a great deal of the obscure notations used to translate ancient scripts into the modern alphabet (eg, how syllabic signs, logograms, determinatives, and phonetic complements work), and explains the terminology used in all serious books in this area.
The 60 documents are presented chronologically: eg, the ziggurat at Ur (still there!); clay tablets of Atrahasis, Gilgamesh, Armana letters, and the Cyrus cylinder; stone obelisks, sphinxes, carved walls, stelae, seals and weights; and papyri, ranging from a Thutmosis III war campaign in cursive hieroglyphs to a personal letter in colloquial (koine) Greek from a wife to her husband, dated c.150BC. Certain articles stand out: the four-page summary of the development of the alphabet; the Merneptah stela (earliest mention of the Israelite people); the Moabite Stone mentioning Omri (king of Israel 885-874BC) and his God Yahweh; the Lachish ostracon war report (ink on pottery), with discussion of his use of the name of Yahweh; the Rosetta Stone; the koine Greek papyrus letter of Isias to Hephaestion (a lonely wife asks he husband to come home), the vernacular shedding light on the Greek of the New Testament; and the Codex Sinaiticus.
T.C. Mitchell, is Keeper of Western Asiatic Antiquities at the British Museum."
Michael JR Jose, Resident Scholar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by jar, posted 07-08-2007 10:42 PM jar has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3695 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 225 of 310 (409370)
07-09-2007 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by anastasia
07-09-2007 12:04 AM


quote:
anastasia:
History plus embellishments is usually called legend. Throw in too many embellishments, and whatever history was there can become unrecognizable. If something has the characteristics of a myth, of a legend, of an allegory, why not just call it thusly?
{I distinguish a difference in what we may interpret as figurative language or metaphor, and what was written as such.}
My personal belief is that the events of the Bible were based around some historical happening. There is the option that A., stories were made up to explain something observed, or B., something observed gradually moved into the realm of myth. We get a little of both in the Bible, but I can't very well check my belief that some stories were historical with all of those embellishments included.
My point is the notion of myth and legend is not applicable to historical items, but only to what is presented in the text as miracles - the latter is easily identifiable in the texts, and is presented as a supernatural occurence - eg: via divine intervention.
quote:
Sometimes there are plot devices, sometimes it seems like the authors themselves didn't believe what they'd heard, so they made up some filler. Like with Noah. Don't you think it crossed someone's mind that a world-wide flood story would be pretty stupid, so they quickly added in the animals in their version?
The Noah report can also refer to a flood limited to the 'then known world'. Considering the early period of its setting (circa 5,500 years ago - before the pyramids appeared), and that at this time Babylon never knew of the existence of ancient Egypt. It would be inappropriate to read this as relating to the entire planet: its like talking 2000 years ago of Tasmania; thus the appropriate path of comprehension must be selected here. Any other readings would be inappropriate to the generation of its period, and there are clear indications in the texts how the current generation should read this report. The question of animals in the boat likewise requires appropriation: only domestic animals were involved, as per the term 'kosher' being applied in the text. Such appropriations are critical with ancient writings, as theyare in making assumptions of deepspace readings in cosmology and in biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by anastasia, posted 07-09-2007 12:04 AM anastasia has not replied

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