Creationism, Evolution and the Public Schools

John, yours was a terrible post. Jews had been emigrating to Palestine since the mid 19th century and purchase the rights to their land. Palestinians did not exist as a people prior to emigration of Jews -- the land was completely desolate and the Palestinans came largely in response to a need for labor, as the Jews brought in irrigation and made the land arable and self-sustaining. The Palestinians themselves were refugeed willingly by the surrounding Arab states in the '60s.Unless you are an anti-Semite, the Jews have never been thieves, but have instead shown remarkable restraint, dignity, and a continuing appreciation for education and the arts for centuries. They are also the only democracy in the Middle East, and our only true allies. Given their terrible experiences during repeated Pogroms at the hands of Russia and Europe and later the Holocaust, I can also not think of any people who deserve a homeland more.

Allison wrote: Hell, Dick Nixon would have had to be a Democrat if he was alive today because he would have been way to "liberal" on the environment.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this.

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You aren't sure what I mean??Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency!He also created the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.He was also the first president to require strict quotas for minorities for federal construction projects.He also made an anti-ballistic missle treaty with the Soviet Union.Compared to the Republicans today, Ol' Dick Nixon sounds like a regular left-wing Socialist, doesn't he?

I think that calling John an anti-Semite because he has criticized the Israeli government is pretty lame.Considering that Palestinians who live in Israel are not allowed to vote, I am not sure how you define Democracy.

Zipzip,Thank you for that awesome post. Many of us have tried to share that exact information, but I'm afraid your words fall on deaf ears where john is concerned. If you say one thing, he'll say another. If you show him proof he'll ignore it. It's a frustrating way to debate. I think we all can appreciate a heated discussion, but some people choose to ignore the facts in favor of MTV idealism. I am frankly appalled by the anti-semite attitudes that are so prevalent these days. I appreciate your refreshing and accurate stance which is decidedly unpopular these days.

Shraf,That was a lame perspective. Israeli Palestinians DO vote. Why don't you call our government's democracy into question because we do not let the Canadians vote for president?

I know that this is a "Free For All" topic, but still, wouldn't it be nice if there was some relationship between the topic title and the material being discussed.Might I dare suggest (in non-admin mode) that the quality but off-topic discussion be taken to a new topic. And if it were not in "Free For All", there might be a little better control at keeping things on topic.Moose

You're welcome. I think it is important to get the record straight.[This message has been edited by zipzip, 02-01-2003]

Hey gang,I've created a new topic in the Free for All forum called Israel vs. Palestine. Now we can free up this forum for it's intended audience. Happy posting

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Yes, yes, I know some history is revisionist. It's up to historians to sift through the garbage to find the gold.

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Agreed.

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There is information and then there is opinion.

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Of course, and this makes perfect sense until one realizes that your 'official and formally recognized sites' are those most likely to be biased. Namely, Israeli government web-sites. What is complicated about that?

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I think it's the other way around. Except you commonly embrace the revisions of others to match your own opinion, instead of forming your own revision.

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Ahhh... you do like to prattle about thing of which you cannot possibly have knowledge.

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I made that statement (which you so eloquently called a judgement) based on what I've read in the teachings of Islam. I also base it on my observations of Islamic fundamentalists. With that being said, there are also peaceful and secular Muslims in this world, and especially in this country. Hence I said one shouldn't judge based on what an entire group of people do, but what the actual faith teaches. If someone is a fundamental, they have a tendancy to uphold their doctrine to the letter.

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Yes. Let's recap. You distrust Islam based upon your understanding of the Quran. I distrust Judaism and hence Israel for the same reasons. The OT is one big genocidal blood bath in God's name. Surely you must approve of this?And yes, when one comes to a conclusion about something it is commonly called making a judgement. Grasping at straws just makes you look bad.

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This is simply absurd. You can't possibly compare the Jewish holocaust to the current government in Israel. There are too many differences.

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Differences in scale, yes.

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You said, "That they dislike having been kicked out of their country", indicating that they had a country. I corrected you.

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Bloody hell. "Country" as in land and home.

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You are ( critical for the sake of being critical ) most of the time, based on your posts.

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Yet again, there is no way you could have this knowledge. Unless you wish to claim psychic powers. Is that what you claim?

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But you won't accept any of the information in the books due to the fact that they can be changed?

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This is ridiculous. It seems you've taken to simply making things up.

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1) Ok, by definition. However there is a difference between an army sent in to eradicate, and a police force sent in to keep the peace.

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When you come in to keep the peace and support one side over the other, what does that make the peace-keeping? [quote][b]2) No I did not use that. I'm making a case that Israel had justification to become a country and remain a country. The UN is beside the point.[/quote][/b]So you deny this? Looks to my like you are invoking the UN declaration. And by what right had Israel to become a nation, the UN and MAJORITY being irrelevant?

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3) I'm drawing conclusions based on observation of your behavior. I'm glad many in the U.S. are not a fans of the UN. They are an insult to our national sovereignty.

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Really? You conclude that I am for the UN by observing my criticisms of UN behavior as regards the creation of Israel? Very peculiar logic.

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1) Gold and land are two very different things. Strike one.

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Yes, so is gold and silver, red and blue, and fire and water. This objection is absurd.

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2) The difference between the Spanish and the Zionists is that the Spanish were there to pillage and conquer, whereas the Zionists were there to start a new life free of discrimination. Strike two.
3) The Spanish were conquering and the Zionists were retaliating. That's strike three, and you're out already.

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4) How is that a similarity? The arabs were never made into slaves, nor were they "chased out" as a majority. If only you could hit the ball.[/b][/quote]The Zionists were there to start a new life free of discrimination whatever the cost. You must be painfully ignorant of Zionism to come up with this crap. The information is out there, but you'd dismiss it.

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You've proven that you distrust everything and won't even look at the data presented. It wasn't just the fact that you won't look at the military analysis data, it was the consolidation of things you've stated on the matter.

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Bullshit. I have read everything you posted. In fact, I had already read through those sites and quite a few others long before this debate began.

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I am not insisting that Israel is "blameless" and it is a nation containing human beings who have the capability to error. And I don't discount anything to the contrary of the idea that Israel has a right to exist. What is silly is that you keep insisting that those are my claims.

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Until this moment, I have seen nothing to suggest to me that this is how you feel. What I have seen is a stubborn pro-Israel pep-rally.

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I am basing my claims on historical data and philosophy. I've provided historical data, analytical data, opinion, and argument, whereas you are merely providing your own opinion and any rhetoric that supports it.

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I feel exactly the same about you. Guess we are even.

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Are you kidding? You are discounting everything I state and all the data I use for support. Your claims don't hold under the weight of evidence.

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I am disagreeing with practically everything you state largely because the bulk of your data is Israeli and Israel is directly involved in the issue. It isn't complicated. It is peculiar that when I search for information the bulk of the returns that paint Israel in a good light are Israeli sites. That should tell you something.

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Why, because you won't bother?

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Because I did and you are making a fool of yourself.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

From message 143:

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Hey gang,

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I've created a new topic in the Free for All forum called Israel vs. Palestine. Now we can free up this forum for it's intended audience. Happy posting

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Please also see message 141.Because high quality, but very off-topic discussion is happening, I see it as best, that I close this topic. Please take the discussion to better places, be it the new Israel/Palestine "Free For All" topic, or some other new or existing topic.I don't think my actions are in any way restricting the "Free For All" discussion/debate. I'm just trying to put some organization into it all. Otherwise, a lot of good thought is going to get lost in the shuffle.Adminnemooseus