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Author Topic:   are christian wives respected?
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 62 of 65 (34144)
03-11-2003 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Satcomm
03-10-2003 10:01 AM


it always ends the same
quote:
I became silent because this topic didn't particularly interest me anymore.
Possible translation: I have no answers for your questions and/or won't address the logical contradictions in my views.
quote:
The same thing was being said from both sides over and over again.
Actually, I think I have been consistent, but you all have been pretty contradictory.
quote:
I accepted the conclusions that:
1) You don't understand.
That is certainly true. Not for lack of asking lots of questions of clarification which were never addressed, however.
quote:
2) You lash out and attack what you don't understand.
Look, I have been very reasonable for pretty much this whole conversation. I am sorry if logical inquiry and serious, detailed questioning of this issue makes you uncomfortable, but I have only been debating in good faith.
I have only wanted to understand, in detail, the nature of what it means to be a leader and a non-leader in a christian marriage, and also how one can be a leader and submit at the same time.
Don't blame me if it's not explainable. I never claimed to understand; you supposedly do, seeing as how you live that way, and claim that it's the best way.
It seems that I am the one who has hit a nerve if you can't answer my simple questions and choose instead to accuse and divert attention from the subject.
quote:
3) Christian marriages do have the capacity of working, regardless of statistics.
I never said they didn't.
What I am challenging is the claim you and others have made that they are the best way, most likely to lead to success.
They simply aren't. if you accept the data.
If you do not accept the data, why not?
quote:
4) Many Christian wives are well respected and are not "held back" or "suppressed".
I don't really know if that's true, because I don't know what it means to be a follower in a marriage. At some point, if you never lead, and there exists a leader, you will submit your will to the leader.
I claim that this is suppression, agreed upon or not. You may disagree with my take on it on philosophical grounds, but to ignore or deny that submission to anothers' will takes place in a marriage that has a leader (and by definition, a follower) is to be intellectually dishonest, IMO.
quote:
5) It's unnecessary for me or anyone else to "prove" it to you because your mind is already made up as to what works and what doesn't work.
Absolutely, positively untrue!!!
I simply have this thing about not accepting arguments that consist of "It is true because I say so."
Notice how I accepted TB's statements regarding the status of women in Christian marriages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Satcomm, posted 03-10-2003 10:01 AM Satcomm has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 03-18-2003 12:27 PM nator has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 65 (34631)
03-18-2003 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by nator
03-11-2003 7:18 PM


my last attempt
Schraf,
I believe that God intentionally created men and women differently so that together they would be whole. In general men have a more logical way of thinking and women are more emotionally based thinkers. I think that when God made a partner for man that it wasn't because Adam was lonely, rather that he was incomplete. Eve was made to complete Adam.
God has made man head of the household, I don't know why but God doesn't always give the why to everything.
Even though man is the head of the household, the leader of his family, this doesn't mean that men always make the right decisions. Alot of times there is an emotional side to a decision/action that a man may not see, or take into account in his decision/action. When he discusses this with the woman she will see this flaw in his thinking and help him to correct, or balance his thinking. She is his helper, and in this way men must not go it alone without their helper.
[I can already see you saying "what if the man is more emotional and the woman more logical" In that case just switch it around either way they balance each other out. But the man still remains the leader]
I have already stated that we must each submit our own wills in order to do God's will.
Wives submit to the leadership of their husbands, husbands submit to the needs of their wives. My wife may want me to go shopping with her (i hate shopping with my wife it's a test of my patience) however she likes me to go with her. I don't want to go, but I go because I love her, she wants to spend time together, and this is what she wants to do. (granted this is a poor example)
My wife submits to my leadership out of love for first Christ and then for me, however I submit to her in other ways, out of love for first Christ and then for her. In this way God completes both of us fully and without want, making us one flesh.
As usual my wording is poor leaving gaps to be picked at, though the concept is here. It does not conform to most modern thinking, but the ways of God do not conform to the ways of man. Man must conform his ways to God's.
Thanx for the discussion.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by nator, posted 03-11-2003 7:18 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 03-19-2003 8:16 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 65 (34671)
03-19-2003 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by funkmasterfreaky
03-18-2003 12:27 PM


Re: my last attempt
quote:
I believe that God intentionally created men and women differently so that together they would be whole.
Hmm, then are unmarried people incomplete?
quote:
In general men have a more logical way of thinking and women are more emotionally based thinkers.
First you would have to show that this is innate to the genders and not culturally-based and learned.
(It is most likely untrue, at any rate. Logic is not "natural" to humans at all regardless of gender, and all humans are very emotional creatures, despite our male emotion-stifling culture. I have research to back up both assertions, if you would like to see it)
Then you would have to show that one was more suited to leadership than the other. {It seems that you imply that because men "are more logical" they make better leaders)
quote:
I think that when God made a partner for man that it wasn't because Adam was lonely, rather that he was incomplete. Eve was made to complete Adam.
But that is only one of the accounts of creation. The other one has man and woman created together, with no mention of woman being created for man.
quote:
God has made man head of the household, I don't know why but God doesn't always give the why to everything.
Forgive me, but that is a copout. You like the part where the man is the head of the household, so you follow that, but you gloss over or blatantly contradict all the parts where it says that the man is the ruler of the woman in all things and that the woman should always submit to the man.
You are full of contradictions concerning what of the Bible you follow literally and what you don't, or what you follow at all and what you ignore.
When you want to support what you do, you say "it's god's will", but then you explain away everything else you don't like.
You ignore the obvious; that the Bible was written in a time where women were considered chattel and had a status far, far below any male.
You want to keep hold of just that last vestige of male superiority, yet refuse to see it as such. THAT is supremely illogical and contradictory.
quote:
Even though man is the head of the household, the leader of his family, this doesn't mean that men always make the right decisions. Alot of times there is an emotional side to a decision/action that a man may not see, or take into account in his decision/action. When he discusses this with the woman she will see this flaw in his thinking and help him to correct, or balance his thinking. She is his helper, and in this way men must not go it alone without their helper.
[I can already see you saying "what if the man is more emotional and the woman more logical" In that case just switch it around either way they balance each other out. But the man still remains the leader]
I have already stated that we must each submit our own wills in order to do God's will.
quote:
Wives submit to the leadership of their husbands, husbands submit to the needs of their wives. My wife may want me to go shopping with her (i hate shopping with my wife it's a test of my patience) however she likes me to go with her. I don't want to go, but I go because I love her, she wants to spend time together, and this is what she wants to do. (granted this is a poor example)
In this discussion, I have never been interested in little day to day things, like shopping even though you hate it.
Besides, I don't think that your wife MAKES you go with her because you must submit to her will. You CHOOSE to go with her because it makes her happy.
The difference seems to be that she MUST submit to your leadership if she is to be a good Christian wife.
There is a big difference between choosing to submit sometimes and being required to submit at all times.
quote:
My wife submits to my leadership out of love for first Christ and then for me, however I submit to her in other ways, out of love for first Christ and then for her. In this way God completes both of us fully and without want, making us one flesh.
As usual my wording is poor leaving gaps to be picked at, though the concept is here. It does not conform to most modern thinking, but the ways of God do not conform to the ways of man. Man must conform his ways to God's.
Thanx for the discussion.
But you interperet the word of God to suit your own preferences. You say that you conform, but there are many very clear things in the Bible that you do not conform to.
Thank you as well.
{Fixed one quote box - Adminnemooseus}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-19-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 03-18-2003 12:27 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nator, posted 03-21-2003 8:13 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 65 of 65 (34881)
03-21-2003 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
03-19-2003 8:16 AM


Re: my last attempt
Freaky, I just wanted to add here that I still don't know what it means to be a leader or a follower in a Christian marriage.
I don't know what it means practically to be a follower or a leader in a Christian marriage; you have assured me that there is no oppression or suppression, or that there is no status difference, but all you have given are assurances.
Every time I ask a "what if" question, you dance around the obvious power difference there is between you and your wife.
According to everything you have said to me, and what the Bible says, your wife is required to submit her will to yours, as you are always her leader in the marriage. You are never required to give up your will to hers, because she is never your leader in the marriage.
You say that men should listen to their "emotional" wives, but since they are the leader, they are not required to.
This is a significant power difference, plain and simple. With power differences in personal relationships comes subjegation; they are two sides of the same coin.
I still don't know how it is that you are able to lead your wife and submit to your wife at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 03-19-2003 8:16 AM nator has not replied

  
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