Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 211 of 300 (395241)
04-15-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by CTD
04-15-2007 7:01 PM


Re: Mushing It All Together
Thanks for the clarification. As you appear to speak for the cult, what say you guys stop calling yourselves "Christians"?
Of course we are Christians, but not part of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
The idea that Jesus death was "THE sacrifice" simply does not hold up to examination.
That is not something new. The Nicene Creed acknowledges that Jesus death was only part of the message, that the Sacrifice was the whole experience of Jesus life, teachings, death, resurrection and ascension.
The Sacrifice was GOD becoming man, just plain, simple man, a man just like you, only human, with all of the limitations of every man.
The Sacrifice was GOD becoming a baby, unable to focus his eye, unable to talk, to walk, to control his bowels.
The Sacrifice was GOD becoming one of us to teach us what WE could be, what WE are.
Jesus was bound to die from the day he was born. It was inevitable, he would die of old age, of sickness, of accident or as happened, by act of man; but he was bound to die.
Crucifixion was not something special, after all, at least two other were also crucified the same day, and same place as Jesus. It is likely that there were dozens, maybe hundreds of people crucified the very same day.
The lesson was that GOD became man to show us just what man could really do.
The lesson was that GOD had forgiven mankind, all mankind, not just those who were followers or who claimed they "knew him".
The lesson was that while no one starts out damned, we will all be judged based on what we do.
Or is deception an indispensable element of your religion?
Unlike the Christian Cult of Ignorance, the indispensable element we see in Christianity is a need for honesty and that GOD is not some picayune bling-bling pimp-daddy that gets pissed when dissed or that does something as silly as becoming man to get himself killed to pay himself for something he could simply have done anyway.
We do not believe that it is necessary to check your brain at the door to be a Christian.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by CTD, posted 04-15-2007 7:01 PM CTD has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 212 of 300 (395269)
04-15-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by CTD
04-15-2007 5:13 PM


Re: Metaphorical Servant
quote:
The bottom line is that God expects us to understand that we have no right to refuse Him. None. Never ever.
Again show where God or Jesus support that statement.
To obey, one has to have self-control and I haven't seen any support that God or Jesus expects us to give up control of our mind, actions, etc. One has to have control to submit. One has to have control to repent and continue obeying or keeping our behavior right.
I have not advocated disobedience or rebellion.
quote:
Just for grins, would anyone care to make a case that Jonah didn't surrender and serve God, or that God didn't want him to? I gotta see this.
You should be grinning. The tale supposedly would have been considered humorous in its day.
After God showed mercy on the city Jonah essential said "What is the point of me giving a warning when you always show mercy? It’s not fair! I might as well be dead!"
Jonah was the equivalent of a grumpy employee. But he was allowed to argue with God.
This thread is about the teaching of surrendering (giving up) control of our lives to God, not the other meanings of surrender.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by CTD, posted 04-15-2007 5:13 PM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by CTD, posted 04-15-2007 10:19 PM purpledawn has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 213 of 300 (395273)
04-15-2007 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
04-15-2007 7:11 PM


Ringo, just from curiousity, where and why is the slave/son thing coming from?
I know it has been the train of the thread! but aren't there other options?
Employee?
In religion there are terms. Slaves of Mary, Workers of this or that. There are Sons, there are daughters. Sisters and Brothers. There are also Other Christs.
I would make a distinction; there are terms which describe our relationship, and terms which describe our duties.
A slave has a 'poor' relationship with the Master. A son would likely have a better one. Their duties could be similar. There is also the possibility that God 'hires' us to do His work, and the relationship is another entire factor.
I just don't know about the either/ors here.
If you were to think of the Spirit of God working in us and through us, would you consider this an effect of sonship or of servitude, and couldn't both require an element of surrender? In other words, nevermind what we call ourselves as Christians. The original question was 'how much' or 'what' do we surrender in order to follow the Bible's requirements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 7:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 10:10 PM anastasia has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 214 of 300 (395287)
04-15-2007 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by anastasia
04-15-2007 9:19 PM


anastasia writes:
Ringo, just from curiousity, where and why is the slave/son thing coming from?
Well, the parable shows that the father wanted a son, not a servant. Why do I feel like I've mentioned that before? And I think it was purpledawn who pointed out that the Biblical "servant" was more of a slave than a unionized employee with benefits.
but aren't there other options?
Y'know, I only brought up the prodigal son because I thought it was a blindingly obvious example of a non-surrender situation. If there is another option, by all means feel free to mention it. I don't feel obligated to argue your case for you.
A slave has a 'poor' relationship with the Master. A son would likely have a better one. Their duties could be similar.
I have never said otherwise.
The original question was 'how much' or 'what' do we surrender in order to follow the Bible's requirements.
My answer has always been that we don't have to surrender anything.
We can choose to subordinate.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by anastasia, posted 04-15-2007 9:19 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by anastasia, posted 04-16-2007 12:16 AM ringo has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 215 of 300 (395288)
04-15-2007 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by purpledawn
04-15-2007 9:09 PM


Re: Metaphorical Servant
This thread is about the teaching of surrendering (giving up) control of our lives to God, not the other meanings of surrender.
It is quite evident what this thread is really about, and it has nothing to do with learning what the scripture says.
EvC may define "Christian" as anyone who says they are. The bible says disciples were called Christians. People who contend against Jesus, God, and the bible on an intentional and continual basis are not disciples, not Christians and have no business claiming they are. They know they can't fool God, so they must have some motive for fooling men. The bible tells us who their master is.
I'm trying not to be hasty, but it begins to appear that this entire forum is a sham. If I don't find some threads which contain honest discussions, I don't see why I should waste my time here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by purpledawn, posted 04-15-2007 9:09 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by purpledawn, posted 04-16-2007 9:37 AM CTD has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 216 of 300 (395323)
04-16-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by ringo
04-15-2007 10:10 PM


Ringo, you seem to be getting testy.
My question all 'drama' aside, was whether surrendering something must have anything to do with slavery.
I can only make a weak example; reversing the father/son thing.
If I say I am a slave to my family's needs and desires, especially the children's, that would be a good thing. People do understand that this definitely requires self-sontrol, rather than letting them (kids) control me. The duties, however, one of which is nurturing the relationship itself, are of such an on-going and all encompassing nature that I can use the word 'serving' my family...or for that matter my community or other...and there is no negative reaction. Rather, someone who is devoted to a good cause is considered to have the uinderstanding of what is Important.
So what I am saying, that this is a familial relationship, a surrender, a servitude, an understanding, and a situation that calls for leadership and self-control, all in one. It is more than following, it is being led...by the moment. That is what surrender comes down to for me, a rather necessitated loving bondage. The odd thing is that I am equating a feeling of serving God to serving my children, but that is the closest I can get.
Now, I feel that I have said this before too, so this may be quitting time on this end!
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 10:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 04-16-2007 12:56 AM anastasia has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 217 of 300 (395339)
04-16-2007 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by anastasia
04-16-2007 12:16 AM


anastasia writes:
Ringo, you seem to be getting testy.
One too few smilies, I guess. (Though having to repeat an obvious point forty times in the same thread does get a liitle tiresome.)
If I say I am a slave to my family's needs and desires, especially the children's, that would be a good thing.
No, that would be a figure of speech.
That is what surrender comes down to for me, a rather necessitated loving bondage.
That's really what the problem comes down to, though, and the reason (I think) that this thread was started: You're talking about a figurative "surrender", which just confuses the issue of what our relationship to God should be.
Nobody has shown that our relationship to God should involve surrender of control. You seem to agree that self-control is still essential - probably more essential than if we are not following God. You are describing a relationship that is clearly not surrender in the proper, non-figurative, use of the word - and yet you insist on using the word "surrender".
All that does is confuse the less mature Christians. We have seen a couple of examples in this thread. Using the wrong word suggests the wrong relationship.
All drama aside, since you can't seem to come up with any Biblical justification for it, why not just drop the word "surrender" and use the words that the Bible uses?
Oh, yeah....

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by anastasia, posted 04-16-2007 12:16 AM anastasia has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 218 of 300 (395389)
04-16-2007 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by CTD
04-15-2007 10:19 PM


Comparing Scripture with Teachings
quote:
It is quite evident what this thread is really about, and it has nothing to do with learning what the scripture says.
It has everything to do with learning what the authors of the Bible were telling their audience.
quote:
The bible says disciples were called Christians.
Actually it says the disciples were called Christians (a follwer of Christ), which they were literally.
A disciple is a pupil, a learner. So who's your teacher? (rhetorical)
Literally today we are not students or followers of Jesus. We learn from clergy and laypersons and follow their lead. The most we can do today is follow what we know of the teachings of Jesus (Christ). Understanding the plain text meaning of the scripture is the closest we can get to understanding what Jesus taught to those in his presence.
quote:
People who contend against Jesus, God, and the bible on an intentional and continual basis are not disciples, not Christians and have no business claiming they are.
As I have said several times in this thread, I have said nothing against Jesus or God. I have not questioned Jesus or God. I am questioning a current teaching which I feel goes against what Jesus taught and God wanted from the average person.
quote:
They know they can't fool God, so they must have some motive for fooling men. The bible tells us who their master is.
I find it fascinating that some can believe that God inspires a clergy to mix unrelated scriptures to create a third meaning or teaching that can be unrelated to the context of the scriptures used, but cannot believe that God would inspire anyone to study and understand the plain text meaning of the text.
quote:
If I don't find some threads which contain honest discussions, I don't see why I should waste my time here.
Honest discussion? You've just labeled me as unfit to be called a Christian because I dare to question the teachings of men. Men, not God.
A careful reading of Message 1 shows the point behind this thread.
OP writes:
Within large civilizations smaller groups tend to have specialized vocabulary. Those who work in various science fields have their specialized terms and phrases, the same with medical, construction, sports, clerical, religious, etc. We run into this problem quite a bit on this board. We see it constantly with the word faith. ...
In one article I read concerning surrender the author stated: "Surrender" is just another word for "faith," or another word for "dependence.".
I feel that teachings like this only serve to confuse and make it harder for some individuals to understand the teachings of Jesus because those teaching may or may not be using the most common usage of the words; or they may or may not be using them correctly to express the meaning intended.
EvC is a very diverse group of people. Geographics, beliefs, careers, etc. Using metaphorical or figurative speech outside of the common group or level makes accurate communication difficult.
Right now you and I disagree because you appear to feel it is wrong to question and investigate the teachings of men and I don't feel that it is wrong to question and investigate the teachings of men.
Do God or Jesus say it is wrong to question or investigate the teachings of men? The easiest way to shut me up is to show where God or Jesus state it is wrong to question and investigate the teachings of men or that the average person is required to give up control of their lives in the true sense of the word surrender.
Getting down to the bare bones is as honest as you can get in a discussion.
As I've said many times before, everyone's spiritual path is different. If anyone is uncomfortable studying the plain text, they can leave the discussion at any time.
Just as I do not malign their's, I would appreciate it greatly if those who choose not to look at the plain text or it is outside their comfort zone, not malign my integrity or spirituality to cover up their discomfort.
So back to the topic.
What do you feel God asks the average person to give up control of?
Be specific and show the text that supports your position.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by CTD, posted 04-15-2007 10:19 PM CTD has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 219 of 300 (396228)
04-19-2007 9:35 AM


Submit Through Self-Control
What I have read so far in this thread is that God wants us to agree to obey his commands. IOW, voluntarily submit.
What I don't read is that God or Jesus require us to give up control of anything that we truly have control over. In James 4 the author spoke of worrying about the future, which we don't have control over anyway.
This teaching I found was interesting in the author's use of surrender, control, and self-control.
The Secret to Having a Great Marriage and Family
When a Christian puts Christ on the throne of his life, he yields to God's control. This Christian's interests are directed by the Holy Spirit, resulting in harmony with God's plan.
But in the list of traits that are to be the result of the Holy Spirit's work in a Christian's life, we find self-control.
...student of God's Word...trusts God, obeys God...patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
The author states that the degree to which these manifest themselves within an individual depends on the spiritual maturity of the individual or their maturity in Christ. So self-control is expected.
Although the author talks of giving up control to God or the Holy Spirit, the gist of the article is more in line with choosing to follow God's commands in relation to our life choices.
Jesus promises His followers an abundant and fruitful life as they allow themselves to be directed and empowered by the Holy Spirit. As we give God control of our lives, Christ lives in and through us in the power of the Holy Spirit (John 15).
If you sincerely desire to be directed and empowered by God, you can turn your life over to the control of the Holy Spirit right now (Matthew 5:6; John 7:37-39).
At the end of the article the author equates committing a sinful act with taking back control of one's life, whereas, following God's commands equates to giving control to God.
If you find that you've taken back control of your life through sin”a definite act of disobedience”try this exercise, "Spiritual Breathing," as you give that control back to God.
I feel that the idea presented in current teachings of surrendering control of one's life (the part we actually have control of) to God or Jesus is used figuratively or metaphorically, but not literally in the true sense of the word surrender.
We have control, but we have to choose what path we take.
So when one is speaking to a nonbeliever, people can send the wrong message when stating that Christians are required to give up control of their lives to God/Jesus. It is wiser to use universally understood language and not religious jargon to depict the true relationship God expects from his children.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

b b
Member (Idle past 6131 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 220 of 300 (405828)
06-15-2007 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
04-12-2007 5:08 PM


Re: POWs
Rom 8:5-8-- Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
It's the "controlled by the spirit" part I'm trying to point out. IT'S RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU PHAT! You don't want to see it so you won't. 122112 is fast approaching. The Master, who owns and controls the spirit, controls all true christians. If He made you, then He owns you and has the right to rule or control you. If you "make" a child; even by our law you have a right to rule/control that child. It's that spirit of rebellion that does not want to let you understand what God wants. Live your life with your God given right to choose how to live. YOU WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN UNLESS YOU CHOOSE NOT TO CHOOSE. SURRENDER. The choice is and will always be yours. 122112 is fast approaching. Ha Ha Ha. Who will be (thinking) foolish? I promise not to say I told you so on that day. That wouldn't be heavenly. We all will soon see. I will lock the gates when He's had enough.
Pit Boy Number ONE - 2112

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 04-12-2007 5:08 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2007 7:57 AM b b has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 221 of 300 (405846)
06-15-2007 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by b b
06-15-2007 3:29 AM


Carnally Minded
quote:
...The Master, who owns and controls the spirit, controls all true christians. ...
YOU WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN UNLESS YOU CHOOSE NOT TO CHOOSE. SURRENDER. ...
More Christian jargon that doesn't really reflect what Jesus or Paul taught.
In Romans 8:5-8 Paul is explaining that the carnal mind is unable to please God because it does not subject itself to God's Laws. By contrast the spiritual mind is able to please God because it will submit to following God's Laws.
So either we choose to follow God's laws or we don't. Just as we choose to follow our state and federal laws or we don't.
There is no giving up control of our mind (surrender).
quote:
If you "make" a child; even by our law you have a right to rule/control that child.
To a point, but not into adulthood. Parents have authority (control) over their child's environment and training, but we can't physically control their minds or actions.
A parent can force a child to sit in front of the piano and command the child to play with threat of punishment or promise of a treat, but the parent cannot make the child's hands actually play the piano. The child has to make the choice.
As adults we are responsible for choosing to follow the laws that govern the culture we live in and we no longer have the urge to rebel against our parents; unless of course the parent is trying to maintain control into adulthood.
I don't see where God has instructed humans not to grow up spiritually. (Another teaching topic idea)
So you really haven't shown where God or Jesus requires that humans actually give up control of their lives (surrender), not just choosing to submit to God's laws.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by b b, posted 06-15-2007 3:29 AM b b has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jaywill, posted 06-18-2007 9:13 AM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 222 of 300 (406251)
06-18-2007 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by purpledawn
06-15-2007 7:57 AM


Re: Carnally Minded
According to my experience, the phrase "surrendering to Jesus" doesn't bother me. And in many of the hymns of people who experience the resurrected Christ I do recall hearing the word "surrender". I found nothing offensive or wrong about it.
Nor did I find such hymns to be jargon. Rather they appear to have been written out of the personal experiences of believers in Christ.
For example this classic: (It is HYMN # 441 of the Living Stream Ministry book HYMNS ).
All to Jesus I surrender,
All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him,
In His presence daily live.
CHORUS:
I surrender all,
I surrender all.
All to Thee, my blessed Savior,
I surrender all.
All to Jesus I surrender,
Humbly at His feet I bow,
Worldly pleasures all foresaken;
Take me, Jesus, take me now.
All to Jesus I surrender,
Make me, Savior, wholly Thine;
Let me feel Thy Holy Spirit,
Truly know that Thou are mine.
All to Jesus I surrender,
Lord, I give myself to Thee;
Fill me with Thy love and power,
Let Thy blessing fall on me.
All to Jesus I surrender,
Now I feel the sacred flame.
Oh, the Joy of full salvation!
Glory, glory to His name!
As long as one does not mean by "surrender" that one becomes passive. No, we disciples of Jesus are not called to passivity. But surrendering to Christ that He may control my life matches my experience. And these things are not learned by reading the Bible alone. They require personal experience.
We are sometimes called to wait on God. That is to stop one's doing and trustfully wait in prayer and praise. I don't consider that passivity. But I would say that that is a form of surrender to God. You surrender up your anxious striving and wait on God in faith. That sometimes does happen.
I have not read through every post of this discussion. I read enough to note that Purpledawn does rightly point out that "self control" is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. And that matches my experience. The more one turns his life over to Jesus Christ the greater becomes one's self control.
It is really a life of communion and union with Jesus. "Abide in Me and I in you" (John 15:4). This is a mutual abiding. This is remaining and living on one Person while spontaneously that Person remains and lives in you.
Of course anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is living knows nothing about the Christian life regardless of how much they read the New Testament. One who does not believe that Jesus rose from the dead and is alive has no idea whether "surrender" is involved in the Christian life or not.
It is important to remember that it is God Who operates in the Christian both the willing and the working for His good pleasure. So surrender to Christ would include allowing the Person of Jesus to empower one's will to act:
"For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13)
Man receives the resurrected Christ Who is today "life giving Spirit". And man cooperates as He operates. He operates in the believer. And the believer cooperates with the living and indwelling Spirit of Christ.
Since the natural man is not use to living by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, one certainly does have to "surrender" up his or her former manner of independent "godless" living. But it is a sheer liberation to do so. And it is a sheer unrivaled joy to abide in Christ and have Him abide in us.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2007 7:57 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2007 8:30 PM jaywill has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 223 of 300 (406287)
06-18-2007 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by jaywill
06-18-2007 9:13 AM


Career Change Surrender
quote:
Rather they appear to have been written out of the personal experiences of believers in Christ.
Yes, songs tend to be written out of personal experiences and in descriptive language to bring out the feelings of the writer.
In 1896, Judson W. Van DeVenter wrote "I surrender all" which dealt with his decision to change careers. He changed from an art teacher to an evangelist. But did he give up any more than anyone else who decides to make a drastic career change?
quote:
We are sometimes called to wait on God. That is to stop one's doing and trustfully wait in prayer and praise. I don't consider that passivity. But I would say that that is a form of surrender to God. You surrender up your anxious striving and wait on God in faith. That sometimes does happen.
Which is what I said earlier, that we stop worrying about what we don't have control of anyway. So we really aren't truly giving up control of anything. We learn to change what we can and accept what we can't.
quote:
Since the natural man is not use to living by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, one certainly does have to "surrender" up his or her former manner of independent "godless" living.
Which is choosing to change one's behavior. So we give up doing wrong behavior, but we aren't really giving up control of our lives. We are choosing a path of behavior.
IMO, the term surrendering one's life is jargon since what you are saying doesn't really go along with the general usage of the term surrender as opposed to the creative usage.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by jaywill, posted 06-18-2007 9:13 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 06-18-2007 8:51 PM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 224 of 300 (406289)
06-18-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by purpledawn
06-18-2007 8:30 PM


Re: Career Change Surrender
Yes, songs tend to be written out of personal experiences and in descriptive language to bring out the feelings of the writer.
I agree.
In 1896, Judson W. Van DeVenter wrote "I surrender all" which dealt with his decision to change careers. He changed from an art teacher to an evangelist. But did he give up any more than anyone else who decides to make a drastic career change?
Thanks for your assistance.
But I think your summary of the song is superficial at best. Rather than being simply a song about a career change it is really a song about consecration of his life to serve Christ.
I think your little summary might be akin to me saying that the Star Spangled Banner by Francis Scott Key is simply a little song about how exploding fireworks lit up the night sky one evening so Key could see a flag.
Or it might be similar to saying Old Man River is a song about a fellow's regret that he got drunk after work one day.
You summary is superficial. I would say that the song I Surrender All is about the author's experience of being constrained by the love of Christ to want to return that love in the form of service to Christ.
If he just wanted to talk about a career switch he could have done so in terms of salary expectation, fringe benefits expected, improvement of retirement plans perhaps.
I think your little review of "I Surrender All" is cynical.
quote:We are sometimes called to wait on God. That is to stop one's doing and trustfully wait in prayer and praise. I don't consider that passivity. But I would say that that is a form of surrender to God. You surrender up your anxious striving and wait on God in faith. That sometimes does happen.
Which is what I said earlier, that we stop worrying about what we don't have control of anyway.
No that is not what I said. We stop doing what we do have control of, namely our activity. That such activity may be ineffective and vain is another matter.
So we really aren't truly giving up control of anything. We learn to change what we can and accept what we can't.
Sounds to me like a humanist spin on Christian discipleship.
Did this come from some Twelve Step program slogan?
quote:Since the natural man is not use to living by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, one certainly does have to "surrender" up his or her former manner of independent "godless" living.
Which is choosing to change one's behavior. So we give up doing wrong behavior, but we aren't really giving up control of our lives. We are choosing a path of behavior.
Okay. That doesn't sound too bad. But the key in the Christian life is you are abiding in Christ. You are in fellowship and communion with Christ. The source of your actions is this union of lives.
You are grafted into another life Who moves in to saturate your actions. It is a union like the union of Jesus with His Father so that His doing was the doing of the Father within Him.
IMO, the term surrendering one's life is jargon since what you are saying doesn't really go along with the general usage of the term surrender as opposed to the creative usage.
That could be because you have not experienced such a thing. And then as an outsider, it sounds foreign to anything you have known.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2007 8:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by purpledawn, posted 06-19-2007 11:08 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 225 of 300 (406314)
06-19-2007 5:10 AM


Surrendered Captives of Christ
The word "surrender" as related to giving in one's will to the will of God is not unrealistic. I fear that by saying that what Purpledawn may really be trying to say is that Christ is not alive. I am suspicious that Purpledawn is really teaching that Christ being a living Person is not biblical.
At any rate here are passages which prove surrendering one's will to the will of God in Christ is biblical:
1.) "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:14).
The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). And the Spirit of Christ is Christ Himself (Romans 8:9,10).
Sonship, Paul writes, is brought about by a person being "led" by the Spirit of God. One can resist the leading of the Spirit of God. One has to surrender to the leading of the Spirit of God. So surrender of one's desire to follow only himself n exchange to follow Another, mainly the Holy Spirit, is biblical.
2.) "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, you always oppose the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did, you also do." (Acts 7:51)
This was said by the martyr Stephen as the religionists were about to stone him to death for preaching Jesus Christ. He said that these opposers opposed the Holy Spirit. It follows that instead of resistance and opposition a person must "surrender" to the Holy Spirit. To oppose is the opposite of surrender. Stiff-necked means stubburness in the will.
The choosing organ of the human will can therefore oppose and resist the Holy Spirit. And conversly the human will can surrender to the Holy Spirit. Stephen had surrendered. His persecutors by that time had not surrendered.
3.) "For Demas has abondoned me, having loved this present age, and has gone to Thessalonica..." (2 timothy 4:10a)
This passage is about the Apostle Paul informing Timothy that one of Paul's co-workers has abandoned Paul and his work of ministry. The reason for this abandonment of Demas was that he loved the present age. He loved the world, the modern age (at that time) more than he loved the Lord Jesus.
This is a matter of one not surrendering up his love for the present modern age in favor of loving and serving the Lord Jesus. This is a matter of surrender or the lack thereof in the human emotion. The Holy Spirit is working in the disciple to love Christ more and more in the emotions. The one who will not surrender forsook the ministry work with the Apostles in favor of his love for the modern fashion of the world. He simply would not surrender his emotion to love Jesus to the degree that Paul and Timothy and other co-workers of Paul had done.
This does not mean that Demas perished in damnation. It does mean that his usefulness to the service of Christ was damaged.
4.) "But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these oppose each other that you would not do the things that you desire. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Galatians 5:16-18)
Here again is a matter of surrendering up one's desire for the fleshly lust to be led by the Holy Spirit. In fact one can surrender either to the flesh or surrender to the Holy Spirit. The two forces oppose each other. The disciple is called to surrender to one or the other.
The Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ in His pneumatic form - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) So Galatians 5:16-18 is about surrendering oneself to be led by Christ the life giving Spirit.
5.) "For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly but powerful before God for the overthrowing of strongholds, as we overthrow reasonings and every high thing rising up against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor. 10:4,5)
This is a deeper verse. It shows that the Apostles ministry involved spiritual warfare. The proud and high thoughts in men's minds rose up against the knowledge of God. Through the Holy Spirit the Apostle sought to bring down these high strongholds of reasoning in men's minds. Their goal was that the hearer's thoughts would be taken captive to the obedience of the living Christ. This is surrender. To be taken captive is a matter of surrendering.
We should let the New Testament cause us to forsake our high minded thoughts of rebellion and allow our thoughts to be captivated to the knowledge of God and the obedience of Christ.
6.) "But thanks be to God, who alway leads us in triumph in the Christ and manifests the savor of Him in everyplace. For we are a fragrance of Christ to God in those who are being saved and in those who are perishing"(2 Cor. 2:14,15)
The word picture Paul uses here is that of a Roman general leading captives in battle to the capital as a display of his victory over them. Incense was spread through the air as the victorious Roman general led a procession of captives.
The triumph here is the triumph of Jesus Christ over all of those who He leads including the apostles. They have surrendered to Christ and are in His procession before God as captives.
When the general reached the capital some prisoners would be put to death and some would be spared. Therefore the incense was a fragrance to some of life and to others a fragrance of their coming death. Paul uses this imagery to describe the New Testament ministry. (See also verse 16).
In brief captives of Christ have surrendered to Christ. This is why Paul again uses this allegory in Ephesians of a train of captive foes. All the believers were former rebels who are surrendered to Christ and are in His procession of captives:
"Therefore the Scripture says, Having ascended to the height, He led captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men." (Ephesians 4:8)
The captives of Christ have surrendered to Christ. This surrendering is a surrendering to His love and His redemption and His great salvation.
7.) "You cannot drink the Lord's cup and the demons' cup; you cannot partake of the Lord's table an of the demons' table. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? (1 Cor. 10:21,22).
Here Paul is warning the Corinthians that demon influence should not be tolerated in their participation in the Lord's table meeting. In this matter the disciples should surrender thier desire to dabble in the demonic in favor of the holiness of the Lord. "Are we stronger than He?" is a question of whose will will prevail in the matter.
Therefore the obedient should surrender their desire to remain unclean and influenced by demons to the holiness and sanctification of the obedience to the Lord Jesus. They should not resist Christ in the will because His will is stronger than theirs. They should surrender in love and worship to the will of God.
These few examples suffice to prove that surrender to God and to Christ is indeed a biblical concept.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by purpledawn, posted 06-19-2007 11:57 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 06-19-2007 12:00 PM jaywill has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024