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Author Topic:   'CREATION' E O WILSON
ogon
Member (Idle past 6154 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 1 of 10 (401553)
05-20-2007 4:59 PM


I'm part way through 'CREATION' by E O Wilson. I am rather enjoying the book made the more enjoyable by being written in plain English. When he does get into using specifically scientific language he more often than not, gives a simple explanation.
Not knowing too much about creation/evolution writers, is Mr. Wilson well known to you guys? are there any more books by this author worth reading?
ogon

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by subbie, posted 05-20-2007 10:43 PM ogon has replied
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 05-21-2007 12:31 PM ogon has not replied
 Message 9 by Quetzal, posted 05-22-2007 6:25 PM ogon has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1280 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 2 of 10 (401614)
05-20-2007 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-20-2007 4:59 PM


To be honest, I haven't read much of his stuff.
I saw that you were reading Dr. Kitcher's recent book. I'd also highly recommend his Abusing Science: the Case Against Creationism for a more in-depth discussion of science in general, using the creo/evolution area as a way to explain a lot of different ideas in the philosophy of science.
One of the best naturalist authors is Stephen Jay Gould. He wrote hundreds of books and articles exploring and explaining countless ideas in science, evolution, and many other areas. I'd highly recommend anything he wrote.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ogon, posted 05-20-2007 4:59 PM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ogon, posted 05-21-2007 2:27 AM subbie has not replied
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 05-21-2007 10:48 AM subbie has not replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6154 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 3 of 10 (401660)
05-21-2007 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by subbie
05-20-2007 10:43 PM


Yes dr.kitchers books is still at the side of my bed waiting to be finished. I found the scientific language a little tough so I am just giving it a rest for a while and reading through Wilsons CREATION.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by subbie, posted 05-20-2007 10:43 PM subbie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 05-21-2007 6:03 PM ogon has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 10 (401680)
05-21-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by subbie
05-20-2007 10:43 PM


Gould
Gould earlier books of essays are very readable and fun. Some of his later material can be somewhat difficult sledding. He has a propensity for using larger words.
All of Dawkins material is very readable:
The Blind Watchmaker and Climbing Mount Improbable are two that I'd recommend.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22489
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 5 of 10 (401683)
05-21-2007 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-20-2007 4:59 PM


ogon writes:
Not knowing too much about creation/evolution writers, is Mr. Wilson well known to you guys? are there any more books by this author worth reading?
E. O. Wilson is a top tier scientist and one of the foremost science writers of our time. All his books are worth reading. See his entry at Wikipedia.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ogon, posted 05-20-2007 4:59 PM ogon has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5058 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 6 of 10 (401716)
05-21-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ogon
05-21-2007 2:27 AM


Who is Wilson to negotiate with?
I understand that E. O. Wilson is seeking some kind of hope that biodiveristy interests can be betterd if creationists and evolutionists put aside their differences, but if that is what Wilson is trying to do in "Creation" then I think there are still other uglier ducks out here that need to put in line first.
quote:
http://www.unibas.it/utenti/colacino/ccjrg-eng.pdf
I have been interested in "panbiogeography" since I found no one willing or able to answer me as to whether the map turutle that lives in the Delware River swam north or arrived in Jersey from the West and 1,000 of pages written by Croizat but not being recognized at Cornell. It has been written off by some even though it had gained some momentum in New Zealand.
quote:
By ascribing impossible standards of verification for the
science of panbiogeography, it became all too easy to eliminate panbiogeography as a
serious contender while orthodox Darwinian models of evolutionary research were
supported.(in above link)
I use this discipline when evaluating creationist proposals.
Wilson wishes to seek some middle ground with creationISTS but it seems that panbiogeographers must be included as well. Wilson's particular proposal to secure a database of all species in 50 years is countered by panbiogeographers who insist that the geographic context of the distribution needs to be taken into consideration.
They suggest that particular database structures that can accomodate the notion of biogeographic homology are needed rather before spending a lot of money on a project which would subsequently need to be re-worked in their minds. The fact that Wilson is reaching out to creatonists rather than panbiogeographers is high irony to me.
The pages of PANBIOGEOGRAPHY that googlebooks has are not available for some reason so I can not show you on-line where Panbiogeographer criticize Wilson's scientific proposal.
My website on the topic is
http://www.axiompanbiog.com
I have found a new use of mathematics in panbiogeography and through pure Kantian mathemas of graph theory verticies one can notice where many of the creationist arguments that lack substantive scientific support may be heading our habitation towards populationally. That is why the irony exists rather than the corrected topology.
The primary focus of reviewers of panbiogeography is on the rejection of Darwinian "centers of origin" within panbiogeographic track graphs. I think that it must be that people have a hard time seperating centers of origin of Darwin, special creation of creationists and 'centers' of distribution panbiogeographically. It may be that Wilson would have to recognize that his rejection of creation is not possible if he accepted vicariance across the globe since it does not necessarily eliminate special creation but severly constrains the applicability of Nature's God. Vicariance is of special interest to many panbiogeographers. But because the disciplines' work still can be framed in such general statements the "science of panbiogeography" having had to meet standards as hard as put to creationist not enough has progressed to where it may actually compete. It seems to me that panbiogeography needs to be worked on before creationist biogeography can hope to gain any webbed foot hold on any standard whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ogon, posted 05-21-2007 2:27 AM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ogon, posted 05-22-2007 4:01 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6154 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 7 of 10 (401879)
05-22-2007 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brad McFall
05-21-2007 6:03 PM


Re: Who is Wilson to negotiate with?
Brad, I've just read the book in question and found it a nice read. Only my second such book!
Could you clarify for me the reason behind having a database for all species in 50 years time?
ogon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 05-21-2007 6:03 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Brad McFall, posted 05-22-2007 6:12 PM ogon has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5058 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 8 of 10 (401897)
05-22-2007 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ogon
05-22-2007 4:01 PM


Re: Who is Wilson to negotiate with?
It is part of the effort to help save species from going extinct. We can only mount reasonable efforts at conservation if we know really what life is out there.
Jar had recently posted a link to a database project, The Encyclodpedia of Life that Wilson is involved in.
http://EvC Forum: Encyclopedia of Life -->EvC Forum: Encyclopedia of Life
Following the link will not disapoint.
I think that is what Craw, Grehan, and Heads were refering to when they wrote in "Panbiogeography" about a database proposal of Wilsons' to catalog all species in 50 years. I would have to track down the reference if you really need that. Panbiogeographers want the software to reflect spatial rather than political boundaries. The database will contain distribution data but then a subsequent effort will need to be counted on by panbiogeographers alone through the "scraping" of the web pages. This will be more costly. It may seem like a small difference but it makes a difference about how the practical designation of recommendations to save species occurs. The panbiogeographic approach is different than "gap" analysis for instance.
GAP
Panbiogeographers can recommed saving genetic variation rather than species per say. One needs to save habitation-space rather than species from this genetic perspective instead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ogon, posted 05-22-2007 4:01 PM ogon has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5897 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 9 of 10 (401901)
05-22-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-20-2007 4:59 PM


Hey Og,
Probably one of the finest and most readable of Wilson's works (IMO) is The Diversity of Life, WW Norton, NY 1999. It ranks up there with the absolute best science writing in existence. If you want evolution and biodiversity to make sense to a non-scientist, this is the book I always recommend first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ogon, posted 05-20-2007 4:59 PM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ogon, posted 05-23-2007 2:29 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6154 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 10 of 10 (401962)
05-23-2007 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Quetzal
05-22-2007 6:25 PM


Saving species, sounds like a good enough reason for formulating a data base to me. And what a monumental task!
By coincidence I have just starting reading Wilson's Diversity of Life today and I'm loving it.
ogon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Quetzal, posted 05-22-2007 6:25 PM Quetzal has not replied

  
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