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Author Topic:   The War On Terror Will End When.........
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 77 (463639)
04-18-2008 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by obvious Child
04-18-2008 4:22 AM


Re: Two Emerging Events
Obvious Child writes:
Seriously? You're arguing that Iraq deserved to be invaded due to payments to suicide bombers? Did you happen to notice that these suicide bombings happened well before Saddam started making payments and kept happing after Saddam was removed? Furthermore, if that is good enough criteria for removing a regime, then we should invade Russia as the terrorism they have been conducting in Chechnya makes Saddam look like a girl scout. They leveled Grozny killing thousands of innocent civilians. Your hypocrisy is showing.
And we had inspectors on the ground.
1. The bottom line is that the war on terror is primarily Jihad driven and Iraq was funding the terrorists.
2. Inspectors were banned from strategic areas which were where the inspectors needed to go and where satelite photos indicated suspicious activity.
3. The consensus of many is that by banning inspections in strategic locations time was bought to export and move weapons to friendly havens to avoid detection.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by obvious Child, posted 04-18-2008 4:22 AM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by molbiogirl, posted 04-18-2008 10:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 50 by Rrhain, posted 04-19-2008 5:02 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 52 by obvious Child, posted 04-22-2008 12:24 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 47 of 77 (463641)
04-18-2008 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Buzsaw
04-18-2008 9:55 PM


Re: Two Emerging Events
Rahven, if and when you ever decide to leave off the personal insult and meanspirited responses, I'll be more apt to debate you.
Awwww.
When your opinions stop being identical to those of conspiracy-theorist nutjob rightwing Bush-wankers, I'll stop identifying you as one. I really couldn't care less if you reply to me or not, Buzz, I'm perfectly happy to simply dismantle what you do say regardless of who it's directed to.
The argument is everything. Personal emotion and perceived insult is irrelevant.
I note that you still have not provided a reason that a different religion's prophecy could not come true. Your entire OP, beyond being factually incorrect, is a gigantic false dilemma, which you have chosen to ignore repeatedly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Buzsaw, posted 04-18-2008 9:55 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 48 of 77 (463649)
04-18-2008 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
04-18-2008 10:11 PM


Re: Two Emerging Events
1. The bottom line is that the war on terror is primarily Jihad driven and Iraq was funding the terrorists.
Evidence, please, that Iraq funded "the terrorists". (And, please. Be specific which terrorists you are referring to. OC was referring to Chechnya. Are you suggesting that Saddam had a hand in Chechnya?)
2. Inspectors were banned from strategic areas which were where the inspectors needed to go and where satelite photos indicated suspicious activity.
Evidence, please.
3. The consensus of many is that by banning inspections in strategic locations time was bought to export and move weapons to friendly havens to avoid detection.
Evidence, please.
You do understand, don't you Buz, that just because you say something we don't have to believe it? I mean, you get that, don't you Buz?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 04-18-2008 10:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 49 of 77 (463653)
04-18-2008 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
04-12-2008 5:48 PM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
I hope I won't derail the conversaton so far, but I wanted to take another look at Message #26.
Buzsaw writes:
...as I see his (Mohammad's) prophecy emerging to fulfillment...
Buzsaw writes:
By understanding this as fulfillment of Biblical prophecy .
Buzsaw writes:
It is reassuring to know that in the end the eternal plan, purpose and kingdom of the Biblical god, Jehovah and his christ/messiah Jesus will prevail. Is this blind faith? No. Why? Because of the evidence we observe that the prophecies are on tract and being fulfilled...
What I think you’ve been getting at is that, either (1) the Muslims are right and they’re going to take over the world, or (2) the Christians are right and the Muslims are the evil church prophesied about in Revelation? But, you believe your observation that the Muslim prophecy apparently coming true is sure evidence of the prophecies in the Bible? How do you know it’s not just the Muslim prophecy being fulfilled? How is this not blind faith?
You still can’t rule out the possibility that this whole drama was prophesied by a third religion in a text that has been lost due to apostasy (which the true God of that religion has not yet seen fit to restore), and that this whole conflict is actually a testament to the truthfulness of that religion. And, if various interpretations of an event see it as fulfilling various prophecies, how can you be sure that your interpretation is right? How can you be sure that any of them is right?
Remember, when two viewpoints clash, the only conclusion you can safely come to is that at least one of them is wrong: but there is no rule that says somebody has to be right. If you can interpret current events as proof of biblical prophecy, and Muslims can interpret it as proof of Mohammad’s prophecy, why can’t I interpret it is proof of neither? Why can’t Rahvin interpret it as proof that the gods are going to war (Ragnarok”you’ve got to admit that it sounds pretty compelling)? Why can’t Grizz interpret it as proof only that the whole world has a hanger up its butt and needs to start thinking more rationally? And who are you to dismiss their interpretations as irrelevant?

I'm Thylacosmilus.
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 04-12-2008 5:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2008 9:46 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 50 of 77 (463702)
04-19-2008 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
04-18-2008 10:11 PM


Re: Two Emerging Events
Buzsaw writes:
quote:
1. The bottom line is that the war on terror is primarily Jihad driven and Iraq was funding the terrorists.
No, they weren't. Haven't you been listening? Iraq had no ties to "global terrorism." Hussein despised Al Qaeda and AQ despised Hussein.
quote:
2. Inspectors were banned from strategic areas which were where the inspectors needed to go and where satelite photos indicated suspicious activity.
Incorrect. Inspectors had complete access to everything, whenever, wherever. Blix was literally BEGGING Bush to back off and let him do his job.
quote:
3. The consensus of many is that by banning inspections in strategic locations time was bought to export and move weapons to friendly havens to avoid detection.
And those "many" (why are they nameless, Buzsaw? Don't you know who they are?) were all wrong. There were no weapons to find. Iraq had dismantled its weapons program.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 04-18-2008 10:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 51 of 77 (463920)
04-22-2008 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by molbiogirl
04-18-2008 8:20 PM


Re: Two Emerging Events
quote:
But Buz isn't going to buy the whole "Ruskies are terrorists" thing.
Of course not. If governments are suppressing Islamic insurgents (who are terrorists in my book), they aren't conducting terrorism, screwed up isn't it? What bothers me is that so many people don't understand that terrorism is a method. Not a belief or motive. You don't need to believe in anything to be a terrorist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by molbiogirl, posted 04-18-2008 8:20 PM molbiogirl has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 52 of 77 (463923)
04-22-2008 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
04-18-2008 10:11 PM


Re: Two Emerging Events
quote:
1. The bottom line is that the war on terror is primarily Jihad driven and Iraq was funding the terrorists.
That war on terror. But you failed to deal with your criteria problem. You justified invading Iraq based on criteria that we could apply to other nations and even to the history of the US. If we are to accept your criteria, what would exist to make us stop at Islamic terrorism and not Russian State backed terrorism?
And Iraq was barely funding the terrorists. As I noted, the payments didn't cause the attacks to start and when the payments stopped, the attacks kept going. Hardly good justification to invade when the donations coming out of Saudi Arabia are massive compared to the occasional $60,000 payment. If you want to stop the funding, you need to change the whole money wire system that has existed in Islam for hundreds of years.
quote:
2. Inspectors were banned from strategic areas which were where the inspectors needed to go and where satellite photos indicated suspicious activity.
Perhaps so, but we didn't find anything after. Furthermore, the satellites did not detect know gases. We have satellites that can pick up parts per billion of specific gases we know are byproducts of certain weapons productions. None of that was found. You're telling me that the Iraqis, after decades of sanctions found ways to conceal production in ways that the US and USSR couldn't at the peak of their military power?
Seriously.
Try again.
quote:
3. The consensus of many is that by banning inspections in strategic locations time was bought to export and move weapons to friendly havens to avoid detection.
No it wasn't. There was no such consensus. Furthermore, we have completely failed to find any paper trail, any worker, any trucks that moved any such alleged weapons. On top of your arguments, we have failed to find production and storage facilities. How the heck did Saddam make weapons without the means to produce, store, transfer and use? Why is that we haven't found Iraqi soldiers trained to use chemical weapons? Hell, the last chemical weapon we found was from the Iraq-Iran war and it wasn't even viable. As for the intel 'consensus' the Chezks and Germans flagged Curveball. Even the CIA stated he was a "drunken liar." And Chalabi DELIBERATELY fed us lies. There is a reason we have a indictment for his arrest RIGHT now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 04-18-2008 10:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 77 (464025)
04-22-2008 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Blue Jay
04-18-2008 11:08 PM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
Bluejay writes:
I hope I won't derail the conversaton so far, but I wanted to take another look at Message #26.
Buzsaw writes:
...as I see his (Mohammad's) prophecy emerging to fulfillment...
Buzsaw writes:
By understanding this as fulfillment of Biblical prophecy .
Buzsaw writes:
It is reassuring to know that in the end the eternal plan, purpose and kingdom of the Biblical god, Jehovah and his christ/messiah Jesus will prevail. Is this blind faith? No. Why? Because of the evidence we observe that the prophecies are on tract and being fulfilled...
What I think you’ve been getting at is that, either (1) the Muslims are right and they’re going to take over the world, or (2) the Christians are right and the Muslims are the evil church prophesied about in Revelation? But, you believe your observation that the Muslim prophecy apparently coming true is sure evidence of the prophecies in the Bible? How do you know it’s not just the Muslim prophecy being fulfilled? How is this not blind faith?
The Biblical prophecy relative to the invasion including the (now Muslim) nations of the whole region around Israel came centuries before Mohammed and cited the nations which were not Muslim at the time the prophecy was written.
What the Biblical prophecies written by several of the Biblical prophets of several centuries stated is that the very nations that threaten Israel today would be the nations which would be at perpetual war with Israel to be consummated at Har-Megeddon when the massive invasion ensues.
The Islamic block of nations will of necessity have to have enough power and influence in the world body to have the power, authority and blessings of the world body (UN) to make this massive move into Israel and particularly Jerusalem which is near the Valley of Jehosaphat where the battle is to rage.
According to the Biblical prophecies this must happen as messiah Jesus prepares to descend from heaven to wipe out the invading nations, effecting civil war between the invading combatants and himself with his heavenly army obliterating the hoards of invaders to the extent that the hills are covered with dead bodies and war debris.
This is when the mother of earthquakes levels the earth substantially leveling the cities and mountains and cleaving the Mount of Olives in half, half splitting off to the North and the other half to the South. I've heard that an major East/West fault exists under that mountain but cannot verify that.
This event can be read in the 14th chapter of Zechariah and I believe in the 2nd or 3rd chapter of Joel. The earthquake is covered in Zechariah 14 and in the NT in the book of Revelation chapter 16 at about the last verse of that chapter.
The Biblical prophecy reflects Mohammed's prophecy/Islamic goal of world conquest. As I said the Biblical account is the most verifiable since it came first and since it is corroborated by several prophets over a long period of time beginning all the way back to Abraham and ending in Revelation about 90 AD ALL OF WHICH PREDATES MOHAMMED BY MANY CENTURIES!
Bluejay writes:
You still can’t rule out the possibility that this whole drama was prophesied by a third religion in a text that has been lost due to apostasy (which the true God of that religion has not yet seen fit to restore), and that this whole conflict is actually a testament to the truthfulness of that religion. And, if various interpretations of an event see it as fulfilling various prophecies, how can you be sure that your interpretation is right? How can you be sure that any of them is right?
Imo your wild notion of a possible third lost religous prophecy is nonsense.
I'm not really interpreting. All I've been doing for the past 60 years since Israel became a nation as prophecied is reading he prophecies and watching them fulfill in the past 6 decades of daily news, much of which has focused on the nation of the prophecies in the Middle East. The prophets had no idea that the need for oil and such would cause the nations to be so focused on the Middle East. They had little use for the oil back then except for lamps amd likely most of that was vegetable based oil.
Remember, when two viewpoints clash, the only conclusion you can safely come to is that at least one of them is wrong: but there is no rule that says somebody has to be right.
But the interesting thing here is that what the white hat prophets prophesied coincides with that of the lone black hat prophet's ambitions of world conquest and particularly targeting Jerusalem which btw Mohammed had no interest in when he prophesied Islam had no interest in Jerusalem until Israel began regathering and setting up a nation of cities from scrub land when the nomads relinquished it, much of which was sold to Jews.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Blue Jay, posted 04-18-2008 11:08 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Rrhain, posted 04-22-2008 11:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 55 by Blue Jay, posted 04-23-2008 12:41 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 54 of 77 (464030)
04-22-2008 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
04-22-2008 9:46 PM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
But none of your prophecy is relevant, Buzsaw. All that was supposed to happen 2000 years ago. Jesus directly told people that they would live to see the end of the world. So unless you're trying to say that there are 2000-year-old people running around, then the expiration date has long passed.
And since Israel isn't being invaded, your prophecy fails.
And since Islam is not on a Global Quest to Rule the World (C), your claims fail.
What would it take for you to admit you were wrong?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2008 9:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 55 of 77 (464032)
04-23-2008 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
04-22-2008 9:46 PM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
Buzsaw writes:
Imo your wild notion of a possible third lost religous prophecy is nonsense.
As a Mormon, I have no problems with continuing revelation and lost scriptures: that's how we got our start, and we believe there are still more out there to come!
But, seriously, the "third-religion" scenario wasn't meant to be taken seriously: it was a hypothetical situation. See, you're seeing all these events as fulfilling Christian prophecy, and Muslims see it as fulfilling Muslim prophecy. You're saying that, since Mohammad's prophecy seems to be coming to fruition (Muslims are taking over the world), Islam must fit into your prophecy somehow. So, you've subsumed their prophecy into yours. What if I told you that Mormons have additional prophecies about the "signs of the times" recorded in our scriptures, many of which seem to be coming to fruition, as well? I could easily say that my religion's prophecies subsume yours by the same way that your religion's prophecy subsumes Islam's.
So, like it or not, your belief in your religion's prophecy is still based entirely on faith. The only way you get out of the "faith only" mode is if you can definitively show that the "signs of the times" only fit your prophecy, and not anyone else's.
Buzsaw writes:
ALL OF WHICH PREDATES MOHAMMED BY MANY CENTURIES!
Timing is not the issue. If you're a Protestant, you believe that the churches that came about during the Reformation are better than the church that existed before. If you're a Catholic, you believe that the religion that Christ started is better than the religion that existed prior to it. Either way, you already believe that "first" does not equal "most accurate." Muslims likely believe that their religion is a vast improvement on what came before it, just as you believe yours is better than the ones that came before it, and as I believe mine is better than the ones that came before it.

I'm Thylacosmilus.
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 04-22-2008 9:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2008 1:40 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 77 (464117)
04-23-2008 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Blue Jay
04-23-2008 12:41 AM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
Bluejay, your book the BOM is also, like Mohammed's Quran a Johhycomelately with Biblical stuff interlaced to lend them some measure of merit. If your alleged prophecies have something to contribute to this topic, I'm/we're all ears. LOL! I'm fairly well aquainted with what's in both books, having them in my library and having read much in and about them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Blue Jay, posted 04-23-2008 12:41 AM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by obvious Child, posted 04-23-2008 5:24 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 58 by DrJones*, posted 04-23-2008 6:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 57 of 77 (464145)
04-23-2008 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Buzsaw
04-23-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
Buzsaw, can you move weapons you do not have the capacity to make, store or use?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2008 1:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 04-26-2008 11:32 PM obvious Child has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 58 of 77 (464151)
04-23-2008 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Buzsaw
04-23-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
Bluejay, your book the BOM is also, like Mohammed's Quran a Johhycomelately with Biblical stuff interlaced to lend them some measure of merit
And the new testament is a johhnycomelately with some old testament stuff interlaced to lend it some measure of merit.
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 04-23-2008 1:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2008 1:44 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 59 of 77 (464218)
04-24-2008 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by DrJones*
04-23-2008 6:02 PM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
DrJones* writes:
quote:
And the new testament is a johhnycomelately with some old testament stuff interlaced to lend it some emasure of merit.
And the Old Testament is a johnnycomelately with some Babylonian stuff interlaced to lend it some measure of merit.
Gee, I wonder how the Hindu...even older the Judaism...feel about this.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by DrJones*, posted 04-23-2008 6:02 PM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 04-24-2008 9:27 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 77 (464243)
04-24-2008 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Rrhain
04-24-2008 1:44 AM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
Rrhain, Unless you can cite something Babylonian or anything else relative to the topic, you have nothing/zilch/nada compared to all I've cited from the Biblical record to support my OP.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2008 1:44 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2008 11:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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