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Author Topic:   GOD IS DEAD
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 31 of 304 (482282)
09-15-2008 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Agobot
09-15-2008 5:58 PM


who am I to teach anybody anything about finding their purpose in life? Its not as if there is one specific path to do this.
I don't even know my path yet, or what my purpose may truly be, but I am simply exploring. That's what I am doing to find my purpose in life. Exploring what's around me, paying attention to how I feel and what I feel. I have no discernible drive toward a single thing--I'm pulled in multiple directions, capable of many things.
Your path towards "enlightenment" may be completely different. Maybe exploring won't work for you, so why should I tell you how to find your purpose in life?
If you're not happy with this answer, tough luck. I'm no christ.
You may as well ask Stile, since he's claiming (near as I can tell), the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Agobot, posted 09-15-2008 5:58 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Agobot, posted 09-15-2008 6:21 PM kuresu has replied
 Message 39 by Stile, posted 09-16-2008 10:02 AM kuresu has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 32 of 304 (482283)
09-15-2008 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by kuresu
09-15-2008 6:11 PM


kuresu writes:
who am I to teach anybody anything about finding their purpose in life? Its not as if there is one specific path to do this.
I don't even know my path yet, or what my purpose may truly be, but I am simply exploring. That's what I am doing to find my purpose in life. Exploring what's around me, paying attention to how I feel and what I feel. I have no discernible drive toward a single thing--I'm pulled in multiple directions, capable of many things.
Your path towards "enlightenment" may be completely different. Maybe exploring won't work for you, so why should I tell you how to find your purpose in life?
If you're not happy with this answer, tough luck. I'm no christ.
You may as well ask Stile, since he's claiming (near as I can tell), the same thing.
That's called hedonism and that's the main reason most of us live(for the pleasure of living). However, beyond that personal pleasure, there is no higher, supreme meaning and purpose for us in a world that started as a a big cloud of dust.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by kuresu, posted 09-15-2008 6:11 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by kuresu, posted 09-15-2008 6:31 PM Agobot has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 33 of 304 (482285)
09-15-2008 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Agobot
09-15-2008 6:21 PM


I fail to see how anything I said could be construed as hedonism. Hedonism is, specifically, the pursuit to maximize total pleasure (pleasure minus pain). The easiest way to do this is to minimize pain and do maximize pleasure, obviously. But there is no standard in hedonism. Some people really, really like crab fishing in Alaska (a la the Deadliest Catch on Discovery). Personally I have no desire to chip ice off a boat in below zero (F) weather in twenty foot seas.
Your purpose in life, I would argue, is not equatable to hedonism. Hedonism is not defined as the pleasure of living, so I don't know where you're pulling that from. Purpose is also not defined as the pleasure of living.
However, beyond that personal pleasure, there is no higher, supreme meaning and purpose for us
Does it really bother you that this could indeed be true?
You're really itching to prove God's existence, aren't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Agobot, posted 09-15-2008 6:21 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Agobot, posted 09-16-2008 3:11 AM kuresu has replied

Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 34 of 304 (482321)
09-15-2008 8:51 PM


Judging by your repeated references to meaning and purpose, I kind of get the impression that you are looking for some type of profound answer that would either reinforce some type of conviction you hold or give you a justification to abandon a conviction you might believe to be true but find distasteful.
It is an interesting topic to discuss and there are plenty of ideas to share, but many people approach such a subjective topic as if it were some sort of philosophical riddle that can be unlocked either individually or through the sheer force of collective reasoning via some majority vote. Unfortunately, there is no objective or group standard that will solve the riddle for you unless you adhere to a dogmatic system of thought where such profound questions have already been assigned an answer.
IMO, it would be more insightful to look at your current convictions and ask the following questions:
-- What principles underlay your notions of purpose and meaning?
-- How did you arrive at these notions?
-- Were these principles given to you or did you arrive at them through introspection and reflection?
-- Do you trust these notions, not just emotionally or 'from the gut', but intellectually as well?
These might seem like trivial or meaningless questions, but I believe anyone stands to learn a lot about themselves by simply giving honest answers to these questions.
Regarding Nietzsche, he is very 'old-school' on the Existentialist scene and really made the error of concluding Nihilism is the inevitable result of a world without God.
A world without a personal God leads to nihilism only if there is nothing to take its place when God disappears. If your eggs are all in one basket and the basket is suddenly emptied, of course despair and angst are the only things left -- that is, of course, unless you realize that all along there was bound to be something else to fill the basket back up.
As an Agnostic who does not believe in a personal deity or afterlife, I often get perplexed stares from friends or relatives. They are likely to ask things like, "What's the point?", "If we just die then why not jump off a cliff?" -- things like that. It is as if in a world without a personal God, the result will be a loss of humanity -- we will suddenly stop being human and will no longer think, feel, dream, wonder, desire, laugh, and cry like we did in the past.
This is kind of like walking into a movie theatre and declaring, "Why bother? The movie you are watching is absurd. This production has no absolute meaning whatsoever and will come to an end. You will find just as much meaning or purpose by sitting at home staring at the ceiling. You are totally wasting your time. Just go home, kick your dog, and then roll over and die."
A riot will ensue with an angry mob proceeding to smash the seats apart, burn the theatre to the ground and then run into the streets declaring, "The projectionist is dead and we have killed him !"
I doubt too many people are contemplating the finitude of the production or its total lack of objective purpose. They are finding their meaning in the moment and not letting it be defined by the future.
IMO, it is the irrational belief that holds Nihilism is the only alternative to God that keeps a personal deity alive and well. God is far from dead.

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Agobot, posted 09-16-2008 3:19 AM Grizz has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 35 of 304 (482341)
09-16-2008 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by kuresu
09-15-2008 6:31 PM


Atheists have to be human beings too
kuresu writes:
Your purpose in life, I would argue, is not equatable to hedonism. Hedonism is not defined as the pleasure of living, so I don't know where you're pulling that from. Purpose is also not defined as the pleasure of living.
Hedonism is clearly living for the pleasures of life, I am "pulling this" from wikipedia:
"Hedonism is the philosophy that pleasure is of ultimate importance, the most important pursuit. The name derives from the Greek word for "delight"
Hedonism - Wikipedia
Agobot writes:
However, beyond that personal pleasure, there is no higher, supreme meaning and purpose for us
kuresu writes:
Does it really bother you that this could indeed be true?
You're really itching to prove God's existence, aren't you?
Yes it bothers me very much that we are as important to this world as is a pile of stones or the rust on a piece of iron. I don't care about no Gods, they can go to hell. But i do care about my life and the lack of any meaning for it in this universe.
I may be an atheist but i am still a human. The fact that i don't believe in god does not mean i am a ashamed to exhibit human traits or that i am a stone-called, callous and unfeeling piece of junk thrown in a corner of the universe. I don't have to be that to prove that I don't feel sorry that our lives(which happen to be our everything) are so unnecessary to the existence of this world. Atheists have to be human beings too, don't we?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by kuresu, posted 09-15-2008 6:31 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by kuresu, posted 09-16-2008 6:16 AM Agobot has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 36 of 304 (482342)
09-16-2008 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Grizz
09-15-2008 8:51 PM


Grizz writes:
Judging by your repeated references to meaning and purpose, I kind of get the impression that you are looking for some type of profound answer that would either reinforce some type of conviction you hold or give you a justification to abandon a conviction you might believe to be true but find distasteful.
What kind of answer could one be looking for in a world created by the Big Bang? What is not clear? Don't you know that we are a product of chance and a cloud of dust? What more do we have to learn in a world that has no creator and so meaningless to our pathetic human logic?
I am not looking for any more answers or reinforcing convictions - there is no evidence that could prove me wrong and there will likely never be.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Grizz, posted 09-15-2008 8:51 PM Grizz has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 37 of 304 (482351)
09-16-2008 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Agobot
09-16-2008 3:11 AM


Re: Atheists have to be human beings too
Yes it bothers me very much that we are as important to this world as is a pile of stones or the rust on a piece of iron. I don't care about no Gods, they can go to hell. But i do care about my life and the lack of any meaning for it in this universe.
I may be an atheist but i am still a human. The fact that i don't believe in god does not mean i am a ashamed to exhibit human traits or that i am a stone-called, callous and unfeeling piece of junk thrown in a corner of the universe. I don't have to be that to prove that I don't feel sorry that our lives(which happen to be our everything) are so unnecessary to the existence of this world. Atheists have to be human beings too, don't we?
Well this says it all, doesn't it? As grizz so eleoquently replied to you earlier, Nietzche is simply wrong on Nihilism. Loss of god does not equal loss of humanity, or purpose, or any other thing. For some people, it will because they have no conception of a world without gods.
Look, there are a lot of atheists on this board and in life. I'm one of them. None of us are afraid to show emotion, afraid to show how human we are. None of us are stone-cold, callous, unfeeling pieces of junk. We are anything but (except, perhaps, for those who truly do have psychiatric problems). Just because there may be no higher purpose or meaning (and who said we agree as to what those words are defined to mean anyhow?) does not mean you have to throw out what it means to be human. That's nietzche's, and your, mistake.
Personal example here. As said, I don't believe in god. I should be despairing right now, contemplating the futility of life and considering death, right? Why am I not? Because I don't think my life is futile or without meaning. I can do something on this planet in my time here. What, I don't know yet. However, I have made my girlfriend believe that love is real (again). I was there for her during her darkest hour of sickness and helped her walk out. And yet, I don't believe in god. Why did I do that then? After all, life without god (and thus, without higher purpose and meaning according to you and Nietzche) is quite pointless, so I could've just left her and found someone or something more fun (playing towards hedonism here). I didn't. I don't require the existence of higher purpose and meaning or god to be human.
Another personal example. My beloved cat of eleven years passed away a week ago. He was in Virginia. I, in Sweden. His death hit me hard. I cried for about four hours and he's been in my dreams, symbolically or physically. Why should I care about his death according to you and Nietzche? After all, death is certain to be better than a pointless, futile life, right?
Are you beginning to see the problem with your stance? How hedonistic is it to stay with someone who is suffering? To mourn for someone who passed away unexpectedly? To be human? Its not. So you can just take your piss-poor conclusions and confusions and shove 'em up yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Agobot, posted 09-16-2008 3:11 AM Agobot has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 38 of 304 (482367)
09-16-2008 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Agobot
09-15-2008 5:15 PM


It's your decision
Agobot writes:
Your story is a true representation of Hedonism. You don't have to prove that Hedonism exists, nobody will argue. It's not even the topic here - the topic is that we are a random event in random universe and we(our lives) have no purpose and no meaning to this same universe.
The story wasn't about Hedonism. It was about showing how a perscribed purpose at creation is not necessarily a "higher" purpose at all.
While I can live with that, it doesn't give me much pleasure that we are here for no reason and everything - the whole universe(including us) exist for no reason discernible by a human mind.
Who cares if it's discernible or not? What if it was obvious, and easily explained? What if our reason for being here was the simple sick pleasure of some being who wanted to watch suffering? There's certainly plenty of that around in this world. Does that mean you should start causing suffering because that's obviously our 'purpose'? Sounds a bit childish...
Or let's say the world was created by some cruel being so that evil would reign supreme. In some parts of the world... this is very true. Would that mean being evil is our "higher" purpose? Of course not.
It's ridiculous to think that just because some purpose was set, or not set, for something (including us or the Universe, or a rock) then that's the "higher" purpose of that thing.
It is trivially shown to be an immature viewpoint.
Like Rahvin was saying... "purpose" and "meaning" are subjective words. It's almost impossible for them to have an objective standard, and it's incredibly immature to think that any particular view at any particular time is actually "the higher" one.
Some facts from this thread:
1. We don't know the purpose of this Universe (or even if there is one).
2. I've provided you with a not-too-shabby, based-in-reality purpose and meaning (love, peace, balance and enlightenment).
3. You can't even imagine, think of or propose anything that would be "higher" than that.
4. I've shown you exactly why any originally perscribed (or absent) purpose is immature to recognize anyway.
I'm sorry Agobot, but if you're still whining about not having any purpose or meaning in your life, there's only one person to blame.
The life you have is yours to live by your decisions. This world is not easy, simple or full of quick-answers. Yes, it certainly can be scary to think that one day you might not exist, and no one will remember you, and your life will be forgotten. But you can do something about it, while you're here. You can decide to do what you can with the tools available to you. Or you can decide to give up. If there is an afterlife, or someone judging this life... which do you think they'ed prefer you to choose? If you were judging your life... which do you think you'd prefer you to choose?
If you want to roll over and whine about how bleak and cold things are for you, that's your decision. But your lies about how things are cold and bleak for everyone, or about how everything is meaningless or purposeless are easily shown false.
Edited by Stile, : Wasn't quite finished

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Agobot, posted 09-15-2008 5:15 PM Agobot has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 39 of 304 (482373)
09-16-2008 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by kuresu
09-15-2008 6:11 PM


My Purpose
kuresu writes:
You may as well ask Stile, since he's claiming (near as I can tell), the same thing.
Claiming that I can't tell Agobot his purpose? Yes, for sure. It's something we must all do for ourselves (I think, anyway).
My purpose (I call it my "secret of life", actually) are two simple words: Get Better.
It's kinda broad and vague, but, well, I've discovered that I'm a kinda broad and vague person
Like you said, it works for me, fits me, and likely isn't right or good for most everyone else.
But it does do certain things for me. It makes me a better person. It gives me purpose and meaning. It makes me feel fulfilled and gives me a sense of passion and ambition. I have yet to hear of anything from anyone that (to me) makes more sense, could produce better results, or is more "me". I can't even imagine anything more important, better, or more attractive (to me). Even if it turns out that there is some 'purpose to the Universe' or whatever, if it doesn't align with my purpose.. then it's wrong about me. Perhaps I'm not "supposed" to be getting better. It doesn't matter, it's who I am, and it's what I do.
It's not so much that I picked it and molded my life around it.
It's more like I discovered it, just sort of describing something that I've had in my life all along anyway. Once I did understand that it was "me", though... it's certainly been a constant source of self-confidence, freedom and strength. Sort of a "know thyself" type of thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by kuresu, posted 09-15-2008 6:11 PM kuresu has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 40 of 304 (482401)
09-16-2008 1:42 PM


You don't understand
You don't understand what I am telling you and you keep talking about personal stuff that gives you two meaning to your lives. I have no doubt about it, i can never argue. I have my personal things that give me meaning to live. What you fail to understand is that I NEVER EVER in this thread was talking about someone's particular aim in life. NEVER EVER.
ALL i EVER talked about in this thread was the lack of a higher, supreme purpose of life(a human mission if you will). Something SO grand and undescribably huge as life and the universe does not serve any purpose. While certainly touching, your stories about cats and dogs do not belong in this thread.
What else you have failed to realise for 2 days is that Nietzsche is talking about that same higher, supreme purpose of life(he claims that with view to the whole existence of the world, life has no meaning, i.e. it serves no purpose). It's only of lately(the last 100 years or so) that it becomes more and more apparent that the universe does not have a creator. That's why Nietzsche is talking about what's in store for us in the future, not how when you look around you, nobody is killing themselves(BTW when you stated that nonsense, did you know that 9 out of 10 people in your own country believe in God, which happens to be the highest of all developed countries?).
If you still don't understand it, you never will. Don't read Nietzsche, pick another author and you'll both be fine.
And please cut the crap how it's quite OK and normal that life serves no purpose in the universe. It might be the reality but at the same time it's ALL against our human logic(which clearly means for us it's NOT normal).
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by kuresu, posted 09-16-2008 1:57 PM Agobot has not replied
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 09-16-2008 2:13 PM Agobot has not replied
 Message 43 by Stile, posted 09-16-2008 2:41 PM Agobot has replied
 Message 45 by Rahvin, posted 09-16-2008 3:14 PM Agobot has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 41 of 304 (482403)
09-16-2008 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Agobot
09-16-2008 1:42 PM


Re: You don't understand
what human logic? you have failed to demonstrate that human logic says there has to be a high purpose. Reality and logic do not necessarily coincide, and where they disagree, logic is wrong. Just ask buz (although his case may simply be mistaken common sense).
I think we finally have a definition from you as to higher purpose.
for agobot: higher purpose is the purpose/meaning to the universe.
If that's true, how does the existence of god(s) give the universe a purpose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Agobot, posted 09-16-2008 1:42 PM Agobot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Stile, posted 09-16-2008 2:54 PM kuresu has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 42 of 304 (482407)
09-16-2008 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Agobot
09-16-2008 1:42 PM


I understand your point, there's just no reason for anyone to take it seriously
Agobot writes:
What you fail to understand is that I NEVER EVER in this thread was talking about someone's particular aim in life. NEVER EVER.
I fully understand this. What you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't make any difference.
ALL i EVER talked about in this thread was the lack of a higher, supreme purpose of life(a human mission if you will). Something SO grand and undescribably huge as life and the universe does not serve any purpose.
And I've shown you that even if something like this did exist. Even if something like this ever was discovered. Or perhaps it can never be discovered because it's so vast... It doesn't matter. It doesn't make it "higher", and it doesn't make it supreme, or even worth acknowledging in any way. The idea that it should be acknowledged just because it "came first" or because some creator-being "intended it for all" is extremely immature.
Why are you so head-strong on uncovering something that isn't worth acknowledging even if it did exist?
Searching for some initial-conditions purpose for life and the Universe as if it actually mattered is like making sure you can solve the Rubik's Cube before you play baseball with some friends.
It may be interesting, but it's totally unrelated and seriously doesn't matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Agobot, posted 09-16-2008 1:42 PM Agobot has not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 43 of 304 (482416)
09-16-2008 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Agobot
09-16-2008 1:42 PM


What makes a purpose "grand"?
Agobot writes:
ALL i EVER talked about in this thread was the lack of a higher, supreme purpose of life(a human mission if you will). Something SO grand and undescribably huge...
Let's try another angle.
How will you recognize this "higher", "supreme", "grand", "undescribably huge" mission/purpose/meaning?
Is it grand because it's first?
-that doesn't make sense. That's only a childish response. Why would it be impossible for a later-discovered purpose to be better?
Is it grand because it's (possibly) from a creator?
-again, doesn't make sense. Just because some creator lays out a purpose doesn't necessarily make that purpose grand or even good. Why would it be impossible for a later-discovered purpose to be better?
Is it grand because it's moral and honourable?
-this makes sense to me. But how do you recognize it?
Wouldn't it make sense that the grand moral and honourable purpose of the universe is the most moral and honourable thing we can think of in our wildest dreams?
But... if you can't think of anything "higher" than love, peace, balance and enlightenment in any of your wildest dreams (a thing you haven't been able to do throughout this thread)... wouldn't that make those things the exact grand purpose you're looking for?
Or maybe I have it wrong all together. What makes it grand? How will you recognize the purpose of the universe when you hear about it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Agobot, posted 09-16-2008 1:42 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Agobot, posted 09-16-2008 3:26 PM Stile has replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 44 of 304 (482418)
09-16-2008 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by kuresu
09-16-2008 1:57 PM


Objectivity is limited by definition
kuresu writes:
for agobot: higher purpose is the purpose/meaning to the universe.
Yes, or maybe "the objective purpose/meaning to the universe", even.
I don't understand why anyone would think that something objective would be "higher" in any regard.
Objectivity is limited. Restrained by it's own objective properties. It doesn't make sense to me that something as powerful as "the meaning of life" would be contained like that. The meaning of life is so big that it shouldn't be held down by the mundane limits of objectivity.
...or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by kuresu, posted 09-16-2008 1:57 PM kuresu has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 45 of 304 (482419)
09-16-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Agobot
09-16-2008 1:42 PM


Re: You don't understand
And please cut the crap how it's quite OK and normal that life serves no purpose in the universe. It might be the reality but at the same time it's ALL against our human logic(which clearly means for us it's NOT normal).
Incorrect. There is nothing about the lack of any objective "purpose" for humanity that runs counter to logic.
All it runs coutner to is the basic human desire to be "special." It's not logical, it's a subjective emotional delusion of grandeur that we all unfortunately have.
The fact is, we are no more significant to the Universe than our constituent matter. We are imperceptibly tiny and irrelevant in teh grand scheme of things. Our species will contine to live and die, and absolutely nothing we ever do will ever stop the expansion of teh Universe or change the orbits of solar systems around the galactic center. Stars will continue to form, burn brightly, and die, and the Universe as a whole will never even notice that we were ever here.
Is that depressing? Maybe. Certainly, to some. But when you say it "runs counter to human logic," you are assuming that human emotional responses are somehow rooted in rationality. They are not. Don't mistake the human desire to be significant for actual objective significance, or even a reason that such should exist.
As for your claims that nobody understands what you're saying, I'm pretty sure we do, we're just mentioning that the only "purpose" and "meaning" that do exist are those that we define for ourselves. We know that's not what you're talking about, but it's still relavent to the discussion. Particularly a discussion where the religiopusly-minded frequently make arguments that God must exist so that we do have a "purpose," which is a blatant appeal to consequence.

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