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Author | Topic: Nature's innate intelligence. Does it exist? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
1.61803 writes: Intelligence is in the eye of the beholder.imo One cell does not a brain make, yet a collective of neurons operating within the collective of bone, muscle, tissue can make create a Iphone. It seems to me that by that reasoning elephants should be really smart. What makes one collective smarter than others?
1.61803 writes: At what level do humans ascribe intelligence to other organisms?And is AI something that is different than "natures" Intelligence? In the first I have no idea, and in the second at the very least AI doesn't make moral choices.
1.61803 writes: Are we back to this supernatural is natural business? Kinda, but I'm more inclined to think that the natural is supernatural. It does seem that the more we find out the more we realize we don't know. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
You just do what you do. At what point then does intelligence emerge? When it is my decision to do it, or not do it. For example, this is the TLR4 pathway that is initiated when the CD14/LPS complex binds to TLR4.
I have personally looked that NFKB translocation as a downstream response to LPS in various TLR4 expressing cells. There is no decision making process in this response. None. It is a triggered response, not a decision. This is not so for the actions I take as part of my intelligent response.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Taq, kinda looks like the immune system cascade charts IL13 and 14 , cytokine soups etc... yes I get it. The immune system as well operates on loop feedbacks and various complex cytokines and cells that direct what happens in our bodies. But to be fair a cockroach can learn what is dangerous and when to come out. Bees learning to recognize faces, moths conditioned to salivate? These organisms have neuro plexes so to speak, but no brain. Yet exhibit some rudimentary intelligence.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
GDR writes: Well it seems what ever it is it is not linked to organism size. It seems to me that by that reasoning elephants should be really smart. What makes one collective smarter than others?Think coral reef or blue whale. Einstein's brain was of average size. So intraspecies brian size it seems is a non starter. It has been postulated that a protein mutation in humans caused our jaw muscles to be smaller thus leaving more room for our noodle. So brain size in primates has some bearing on homonid intelligence. In the first I have no idea, and in the second at the very least AI doesn't make moral choices. Morality is a human construct and would not apply to a non human intelligence. Some believe that regardless of the orgin of intelligence that there is a objective morality and eventually a moral code would evolve. Sound nice and gives one a warm fuzzy, but I doubt it. Nah the machines would find us either useful or not. Lets hope the first and not the latter.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2492 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Morality is a human construct and would not apply to a non human intelligence. Some believe that regardless of the orgin of intelligence that there is a objective morality and eventually a moral code would evolve. Sound nice and gives one a warm fuzzy, but I doubt it. Nah the machines would find us either useful or not. Lets hope the first and not the latter. I would suspect that, unless programmed otherwise, AI would rely on utilitarianism as a moral code. Which outcome is greater? Okay, that's what we do. It may not be a form of morality that humans will like very much, but it is morality.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
Hi Taq, kinda looks like the immune system cascade charts IL13 and 14 , cytokine soups etc... yes I get it. The immune system as well operates on loop feedbacks and various complex cytokines and cells that direct what happens in our bodies. If you give someone a large dose of TNF- is it their intelligence that causes them to feel like shit?
But to be fair a cockroach can learn what is dangerous and when to come out. Bees learning to recognize faces, moths conditioned to salivate? These organisms have neuro plexes so to speak, but no brain. Yet exhibit some rudimentary intelligence. Yes, rudimentary brains produce rudimentary intelligence. This is a far cry from showing that single cells are intelligent in the same way, and even farther away from showing that mutations are guided by intelligent choices in single celled bacteria.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Nuggin,
I would suspect that, unless programmed otherwise, AI would rely on utilitarianism as a moral code. Which outcome is greater? Okay, that's what we do. Might I suggest that AI would not have any such use for a moral code. Moral code meaning a defined set for good/right and bad/wrong. In regards to ethics, standards, and moral considerations as opposed to practical considerations. I believe AI would be indifferent to judgement choices and operate strictly on a practical as you said utilitarian based algorhythms. Which outcome is greater is not the same as which outcome is morally bankrupt and which is ethically correct. A machine would give two shits about the destruction of Alderaan where as Ben Kenobi felt a disturbance in the force.
It may not be a form of morality that humans will like very much, but it is morality.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2492 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined:
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Might I suggest that AI would not have any such use for a moral code. Moral code meaning a defined set for good/right and bad/wrong. In regards to ethics, standards, and moral considerations as opposed to practical considerations. I believe AI would be indifferent to judgement choices and operate strictly on a practical as you said utilitarian based algorhythms. Which outcome is greater is not the same as which outcome is morally bankrupt and which is ethically correct. A machine would give two shits about the destruction of Alderaan where as Ben Kenobi felt a disturbance in the force. Utilitarianism is a moral code, it just has a different means of measuring what is "moral" or "ethical" which is antithetical to most other forms of morality. In utilitarianism, if killing 100,000 people will allow 100,001 other people to survive, then load up the laser cannons.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Taq writes: Well I guess the upregulation of the autonomics? Adrenergic sympathatic discharge? Not sure, but pretty sure nothing to do with the blood brain barrier. If you give someone a large dose of TNF- is it their intelligence that causes them to feel like shit? And yes I agree, single cells dont think. .
[qs=Taq]
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Logically, the term innate cannot apply: it infers a dis-logic when the goal post cannot be pushed any further, and thereby an abandonment of all known scientific application. It ceases being science any more. An action is only possible via an interaction - there is no alternative to this anywhere in the universe.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
There is no such thing as 'NATURE' - in reality. There is also no such thing as an eco-system as its own end; this is a process resultant from an independent, purposefuly formed construct. The chip in a cell phone is also an eco-system of sorts, but its source is not the wiring in the chip!
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Admin Director Posts: 12998 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Hi IamJoseph,
I'm a participant in this thread, not a moderator, but given what has taken place over at the My HUGE problem with creationist thinking (re: Which version of creationism) thread I feel urgent action is required so as to prevent you from doing to this thread what you did to that one. I'm removing your posting permissions in this thread's forum, the Is It Science? forum.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Straggler on the human brain writes: Isn't it just a mass of cells responding to stimuli and acting out the laws of physics? In what way (to pursue my devils advocate stance) is it not just a more complex variant of plants involuntarily turning towards the Sun? jar writes: Because it is capable of NOT turning to face the sun. I'll grant you that the range of inputs a brain can respond to is greater than those that the motion of a plant can respond to. But is the human brain any more capable of doing something other than deterministically responding to inputs and obeying the laws of physics than the plant is? Given a specific set of inputs is the human brain any more capable of doing otherwise than the plant is when confronted with it's very basic input? Is intelligence just the unpredictability borne of increased complexity?
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm sorry but I don't see any point or relevancy in that post.
Intelligence is increased complexity and the ability to make irrational, illogical and unreasonable decisions.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: I'm sorry but I don't see any point or relevancy in that post. Well a number of people seem to be saying that the plant isn't displaying intelligence because it is simply responding to stimuli as a result of chemistry and physics. So I am asking - Is the human brain any more capable of doing something other than deterministically responding to inputs and obeying the laws of chemistry and physics than the plant is?
jar writes: Intelligence is increased complexity and the ability to make irrational, illogical and unreasonable decisions. Are insects "intelligent"...? Worms? Rhombozoans? Jellyfish? Cats? It seems obvious that humans are intelligent and cells aren't (well..maybe not to Zi ko) so I am asking what criteria are we applying to qualify something as "intelligent" or not. Where is the boundary? And if it is blurred (as I would argue it is) what is the nature of the blurring?
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