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Author Topic:   What evidence, when Darwin/Wallace began work made them think of evolution?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 27 (357101)
10-17-2006 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Quetzal
10-17-2006 9:13 AM


Damn. I forgot the barnacles.
Darwin was an expert on the taxonomy of barnacles. He spent years and years dissecting and classifying barnacles. If you wanted to know anything about barnacles in the middle of the 19th century, Darwin was the go-to guy.
I think I remember reading Moore and Desmond's biography (before they added the awful subtitle) where Darwin was fascinated when he discovered that what were thought to be hermaphrodite species were actually a female with a very tiny male living as a parasite -- and that there were "intermediate forms" between species with this full-blown parasitism and species where more-or-less fully developed males were merely living in the same shell as the female. Or something like that -- maybe I need to read the book again.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 27 (357103)
10-17-2006 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
10-17-2006 2:36 PM


Re: Darwin's conclusions
quote:
Well, Darwin was not really original in his theory....
Few famous scientists were completely original in the work they produced. Darwin was no more nor no less original than anyone else whose theories resulted in a profound paradigm shift.
What Darwin did do was use the idea of natural selection of naturally occurring variations to explain various different phenomena in biology, from anatomy to taxonomy to biogeography. He also spent a great deal of his life collecting a wealth of data to support his theory; I don't know how many people have read Origin of Species or Descent of Man; those books are almost boring in that they are very detailed observations of phenomena that support his theory -- it is only the beautiful writing style of 19th century authors that keep the books at all readable. He also produce several other books and many monographs also detailing evidence to support his theory of natural selection of naturally occurring variations.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5010 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 18 of 27 (357197)
10-18-2006 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
10-17-2006 2:36 PM


Re: Darwin's conclusions
nj writes:
And then somehow from this logic he came to the grand notion that all plants and animals share a common ancestor.
Why not read Darwin's The Origin Of Species and find out how?
Using your own ignorance as scorn just makes you look ignorant!
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3311 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 19 of 27 (357256)
10-18-2006 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chiroptera
10-17-2006 3:21 PM


Re: Darwin's conclusions
Chiroptera writes:
...it is only the beautiful writing style of 19th century authors that keep the books at all readable.
I quite disagree with this notion. I thought it could have been a lot more readable if it had be more direct.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3618 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 20 of 27 (357441)
10-19-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by RickJB
10-18-2006 4:11 AM


Darwin on the 'Net
RickJB writes:
Why not read Darwin's The Origin of Species and find out how?
Now it's easier than ever to do. Darwin's complete works will soon be online.
BBC BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Charles Darwin's works go online
Thanks to Cambridge University for making this resource available to the public.
.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Added portrait.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3948 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 21 of 27 (357489)
10-19-2006 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Chiroptera
10-17-2006 7:48 AM


oh god malthus.

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bgmark2
Member (Idle past 6178 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 05-04-2007


Message 22 of 27 (401326)
05-19-2007 7:51 AM


Is interesting about the barnicals...wouldn't have tought there would have been great demand for experts in barnicals in the middel of the eigteenth century...

What about coconuts?

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 23 of 27 (416604)
08-16-2007 11:22 PM


?????
Magecraft writes:
"What was the evidence that was accumulating when Darwin and Wallace began their work that led them to start thinking about evolution?"
yeah, what was the evidence that was accumulating? I read that it was obvious but I don't understand what was obvious.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box by replacing the closing "/quote" with "/qs".

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2190 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 24 of 27 (416650)
08-17-2007 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Ihategod
08-16-2007 11:22 PM


Darwin's precursors
quote:
yeah, what was the evidence that was accumulating? I read that it was obvious but I don't understand what was obvious.
That's a good question. Darwin certainly built upon a number of ideas of other naturalists of the time.
The following observations of Darwin and his predecessors are what we would call "Darwinism". Please note that Darwinism preceeds the discovery of DNA and the role it plays in heredity. This aspect of evolution was yet to be understood at the level it is today, but Genetics served to confirm predictions based upon a "purely" Darwinian model. The marriage of Darwinism and Genetics is known as The Modern Synthesis.
If you would like to understand this subject more fully, I suggest reading the entire article here.
1. Transmutationism (also called by Darwin "Descent with Modification"). This word means in context that species change ("mutate", from the Latin) from one species to another. It is in opposition to the prevailing Aristotelian views that species were natural kinds that were eternal.
2. Common descent. This is the view (not held by all evolutionists prior to Darwin or even after) that similar species with similar structures (homologies) were similar because they were descended from a common ancestor. Darwin tended to present the cases for limited common descent - i.e., of mammals or birds - but extended the argument to the view that all life arises from a common ancestor or small set of common ancestors.
3. Struggle for existence. This is the view that more organisms are born than can survive. Consequently, most of those zygotes that are fertilised will die, and of those that reach partition (birth) many will either die or not be able to reproduce. The competition here is against the environment, which includes other species (predators and organisms that use the same food and other resources). This is interspecific (between species) competition.
4. Natural selection. This is a complex view that species naturally have a spread of variations, and that variants that confer an advantage on the bearer organisms, and are hereditable, will reproduce more frequently than competitors, and change the "shape" of the species overall. Notice here that this competition is mostly intraspecific, i.e., between members of the same species (and indeed of the same population).
5. Sexual selection. Many features of organisms are obvious hindrances (such as the tails of birds of paradise), and these often occur in one sex only. Darwin argued that there was competition for mating opportunities and any feature that initially marked a gender out as a good mating opportunity would become exaggerated by the mating choices of the opposite gender. Competition here is between conspecifics of the same gender.
6. Biogeographic distribution. Darwin and Wallace were concerned to explain why species were found in the areas they were, and argued that dispersal of similar, but related, species was due to their evolution in one place and migration into other regions.
7. Heredity. Darwin knew very little about what we would call the principles of genetics. He accepted the prevailing and old view that the use of features of the organism would change the way those features were inherited.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 25 of 27 (416654)
08-17-2007 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Ihategod
08-16-2007 11:22 PM


Evolution Evidence
Vashgun writes:
Magecraft writes:
"What was the evidence that was accumulating when Darwin and Wallace began their work that led them to start thinking about evolution?"
yeah, what was the evidence that was accumulating? I read that it was obvious but I don't understand what was obvious.
Keep in mind that you're asking about the evidence that was accumulating when Darwin and Wallace began their work, not the evidence that they gathered after they began their work.
A perhaps better way to phrase the question is to ask is why naturalists of the period leading up to Darwin already accepted evolution. The great naturalist Lamarck, who was already in the ground before Darwin ever set foot on the Beagle, developed his own theory of evolution that held that acquired characteristics could be passed on to progeny.
Pre-Darwin naturalists accepted that evolution had happened, though they didn't know how, because of the fossil record and the gradually increasing realization, as more and more lifeforms were classified according the Linnaean system, that existing lifeforms were interrelated.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5053 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 26 of 27 (416766)
08-17-2007 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Magecraft
10-16-2006 7:37 PM


Darwin's use of "evidence"
I guess from what Darwin said, if there was anything obvious it would have had then to have been, whatever causally modified and adapted the variously shaped individuals to their several conditions and formatted their correlations to their stations formally mode by mode (e.g. without doubtable dispute back then at least while comparing two quantities) no matter what later came be called a mutation.
Darwin wrote,
quote:
Summary of Chapter. If during the long course of ages and under the varying conditions of life, organic beings vary at all in the several parts of their organization, and I think this cannot be disputed; if there be, owing to the high geometrical powers of increase of each species, at some age, season, or year, a severe struggle for life, and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, considering the infinite complexity of the relations of all organic beings to each other and to their conditions of existence, causing an infinite diversity in structure, constitution, and habits, to be advantageous to them, I think it would be most extraordinary fact if no variations ever had occurred useful to each being’s welfare, in the same way as so many variations have occurred useful to man. But if variations useful to any organic being do occur, assuredly individuals thus characterized will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life; and from the strong principle of inheritance they will tend to produce offspring similarly characterized. This principle of preservation, I have called, for the sake of brevity, Natural Selection. Natural selection, on the principle of qualities being inherited at corresponding ages, can modify the egg, seed, or young, as easily as the adult. Amongst many animals, sexual selection will give its aid to ordinary selection, by assuring to the most vigorous and best adapted males the greatest number of offspring. Sexual selection will also give characters useful to males alone, in their struggles with other males.
Whether natural selection has really thus acted in nature, in modifying and adapting the various forms of life to their several conditions and stations, must be judged of by the general tenour and balance of evidence given in the following chapters
(bold added from On Natural Selection p 68-69 Penguin Books 2005 extracted from Darwin’s Origin of Species 1859 )
So...before getting to the difficulties on theory and the evidentiary chapters, Darwin presented what he doubted would not be disptued and expected to be judged reflectively and evidentially in the tone he presented later. This timbre, tenor, and potential plausibility needs to be determined and critiqued between his use of "number" and "form" he held in a sense to not beopen to much doubt back then, back in the beggining. It can be done but requires, on the balane, one to be clear bout the area bow of the savages' apparent ship turned. It was not a mere island.
Edited by Brad McFall, : grammer

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 27 of 27 (433039)
11-09-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Brad McFall
08-17-2007 6:54 PM


Re: Darwin's use of "evidence"
Hi Brad.
You know my opinion about darwinism and especially about "natural selection". I suppose I have given very good evidence now at the thread about "Mimicry, please help me underestand how"
http://EvC Forum: Mimicry: Please help me understand how -->EvC Forum: Mimicry: Please help me understand how
Last time I mentioned Heikertinger who dismissed "natural selection" you said that lysenkoism is probably no answer to the issue of evolution. You have mentioned it because I have written that the last work of Franz Heikertinger "Das Raetsel der Mimikry un seine Loesung - Eine kritische Darstellung des Werdens, des Wesens und der Wiederlegung der Tiertrachthypothesen, Jena 1954" was published in East Germany (btw Jena where Haeckel teached). The fact is very interesting, because entomologist Heikertinger lived in Vienna and spent more than 40 years exploring mimicry there and he came very early to the interesting conclusion that mimicry doesn't exist. All his work is nothing else as refuting darwinian concept of mimicry and especially of "natural selection" as source of it. I have read the opinion that it is some kind of Viena's nihilism as represented in those times by some famous Vienna philosophers..
Anyway Heikertinger seems to be a systematic from the past times with vast knowledge of insects families and their species. Consequently he refuted many cases of so called mimicry as the pure coincidence of resemblance of transformational sequences. His idea that ant mimics are nothing else that pure coincidence is supported by the fact that there are many ant-like beetles living in caverns and he called those species "kavernikoles".
But I think that anti-darwinian thinking in Central Europe has it's source in different kind of more complex thinking probably going back to Italian Rennaissance. So the Darwin's thoughts has been transformed here to some kind of more complex theory of life. Perhaps Darwins original thoughts are here not as dismissed by opponents of darwinism as their neodarwinian transformation into concepts of "selfish gene" etc. At leat the work of prominent anti-neodarwinian biologist professor Zdenek Neubauer from Charles Univ. Prague seems to support such an idea.
---
btw. could Kant be marked as a Cetral-European philosopher?
Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.

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