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Author Topic:   Why Would God Care?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 196 of 217 (396616)
04-21-2007 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Neutralmind
04-20-2007 8:33 PM


Re: Rest of the Story
quote:
We can't know what was God's reason(ing) for deeming those actions bad, we can just speculate.
Exactly! So since we have no way of knowing the actual thought process behind the rule, which is over 2,000 years old, we also shouldn't say that that rule shows that God cares about our actions or thoughts that don't hurt anyone else.
quote:
What we can know is that some actions (or even thoughts) are considered bad by the God of the Bible.
What we know is that some actions at the time of the rule were considered bad by the God of Abraham.
quote:
Are you saying that some of Bible's teachings do not concern us anymore but were just for the people of that time?
I'm saying they were based on the actions of the people of the time.
The book of Leviticus was supposedly written by the Priestly writer and considered to be written after the fall of the Northern Kingdom in 722BCE.
I don't have time to get into more detail right now, but will get back to it, but think about what the author may have considered to be harmful to himself or others during that time.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Neutralmind, posted 04-20-2007 8:33 PM Neutralmind has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 197 of 217 (397002)
04-23-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Neutralmind
04-20-2007 8:33 PM


No One Really Knows
quote:
We can't know what was God's reason(ing) for deeming those actions bad, we can just speculate. What we can know is that some actions (or even thoughts) are considered bad by the God of the Bible.
In several Jewish arguments it seems that the Jews don't know what God had in mind either, but looking at the comments in the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 54b) the verse is associated with the verse against sodomites.
Deuteronomy 23:17
There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
When we look the meaning of the word sodomite we find that it means male temple prostitute.
I guess the question would be did religious ritual sexual acts hurt people? Some articles and stories I've read give me the idea that being a temple prostitute may not have been a choice for some.
Some feel the verse concerns only anal sex, but the wording doesn't include women. IMO, that would mean there is more to it than just that action especially since several on this board have stated that one can have a homosexual relationship without that specific act.
Even though all we have is speculation, we have to come to some conclusion as to what was expected of the israelites and yes how and if it pertains to us today. It is also the only way we can determine if God was concerned about things that don't hurt others.
Right now I would say God was concerned about those that ritual sexual acts did hurt.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Neutralmind, posted 04-20-2007 8:33 PM Neutralmind has not replied

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 198 of 217 (432977)
11-09-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brian
03-14-2007 4:44 PM


OK this is going waaaaaay back to page 1 but I feel I NEED to correct Brian. Brian said "Why would He care when He gleefully sent the Angel of Death to slaughter innocent Egyptian babies?" The babies were innocent, but their parents had every chance to save them, and they chose not to. End of story. They chose their children's deaths by not paying heed to Moses' warning that the Angel was coming. The Egyptions had every chance to go into Goshen and save themselves and their children. You'd think by the last plauge they would have had enough sense to see the power of God.
Edited by Raphael, : Punctuation.

Why Are We so Simple-Minded?
I Know it's Easy to Deny the Truth.............Search Your Heart for What You Believe to be True. Then, Considering Your Morals, Decide if this, in Your Heart of Hearts, is What you Truly Believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Brian, posted 03-14-2007 4:44 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 200 by sidelined, posted 11-09-2007 3:42 PM Raphael has not replied
 Message 201 by jar, posted 11-09-2007 5:41 PM Raphael has not replied
 Message 202 by Brian, posted 11-10-2007 8:24 AM Raphael has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 199 of 217 (433025)
11-09-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Raphael
11-09-2007 12:48 PM


Raphael writes:
The babies were innocent, but their parents had every chance to save them, and they chose not to. End of story. They chose their children's deaths by not paying heed to Moses' warning that the Angel was coming.
The question is: If God really cared about the children, why didn't He prevent the Egyptians from making such a disastrous decision?
The Egyptions had every chance to go into Goshen and save themselves and their children.
"Going into Goshen" wouldn't have helped them. The Israelites were warned to mark their doorposts with blood to protect their children. The Egyptians were never warned. That was the whole point - to separate the Israelites from the Egyptians, to save the Israelites and kill the Egyptians.
God clearly didn't care about the Egyptians.
Edited by Ringo, : Missspelled 'Equiptions' five times - at least I'm consistent.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 200 of 217 (433027)
11-09-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Raphael
11-09-2007 12:48 PM


Raphael
The babies were innocent, but their parents had every chance to save them, and they chose not to
And of course the response of a righteous God is to kill the innocent along with the guilty. Truly pulls at the heartstrings the level of love shown there. Small wonder people feel so drawn to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Raphael, posted 11-09-2007 12:48 PM Raphael has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 201 of 217 (433043)
11-09-2007 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Raphael
11-09-2007 12:48 PM


You really need to read the Bible:
Raphael writes:
OK this is going waaaaaay back to page 1 but I feel I NEED to correct Brian. Brian said "Why would He care when He gleefully sent the Angel of Death to slaughter innocent Egyptian babies?" The babies were innocent, but their parents had every chance to save them, and they chose not to. End of story. They chose their children's deaths by not paying heed to Moses' warning that the Angel was coming.
Do any of you Biblical Christians actually read the Bible?
Exodus 11 writes:
1 Now the LORD had said to Moses, "I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. 2 Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold." 3 (The LORD made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moses himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh's officials and by the people.)
4 So Moses said, "This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. 6 There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt”worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. 7 But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.' Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel. 8 All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, 'Go, you and all the people who follow you!' After that I will leave." Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh.
9 The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you”so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
Time after time throughout the Exodus myth Pharaoh agrees to let the Israelites leave, but God hardens his heart to make a point on the Israelites.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 202 of 217 (433123)
11-10-2007 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Raphael
11-09-2007 12:48 PM


OK this is going waaaaaay back to page 1 but I feel I NEED to correct Brian.
I pray for the day that a wee fundy can do this.
The babies were innocent, but their parents had every chance to save them, and they chose not to. End of story.
There is so much wrong with this unbiblical fantasy that I can only assume you haven't read the relevant Bible verses.
You are saying that their parents had every chance to save them but what about the 65 years old man whose parents are dead, how can his parents possibly have had a chance to save him when they are dead?
Also, for those parents who were alive, when and how did they have the chance to save their children? Where in the Bible can I find this information?
They chose their children's deaths by not paying heed to Moses' warning that the Angel was coming.
Eh, well the only Egyptian that was warned by Moses was the pharaoh, can you tell me where in the Bible I can find the information that Moses warned everyone (which is contrary to what is in my Bibles)?
The Egyptions had every chance to go into Goshen and save themselves and their children.
Have you been watching Disney's Prince of Egypt or something else, because this has nothing to do with the Bible? Where are you getting this stuff from?
You'd think by the last plauge they would have had enough sense to see the power of God.
But you do know that God set this whole thing up? God made it impossible for pharaoh to agree to let the Hebrews go, specifically so that God could show the Egytpians how powerful He is. This is what the Bible itself tells us, you really should go read it, it is a wonderful tale.
It annoys me that kids are indoctrinated by their parents who force the Bible as fact fantasies on them, but this is a whole different level.
You are the second person in as many weeks to come up with something that does not resemble the Bible story of tenth plague, a different version that attempts to move the guilt away from God and on to the Egytpians themselves. What I need to ask is where this claptrap is coming from? Are fundy parents now brainwashing their kids with nonbiblical versions of events that make God look good?
So, where is it you got your version of this event from?
I know you are young, and a decent chap, but I am extemely interested and concerned) in where this new version has sprung from.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Raphael, posted 11-09-2007 12:48 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Raphael, posted 11-10-2007 11:51 AM Brian has replied

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 203 of 217 (433150)
11-10-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Brian
11-10-2007 8:24 AM


*Sigh*
There is so much wrong with this unbiblical fantasy that I can only assume you haven't read the relevant Bible verses.
Of course I've read them. Have you?
You are saying that their parents had every chance to save them but what about the 65 years old man whose parents are dead, how can his parents possibly have had a chance to save him when they are dead?
Obviously he could have went himself, a 65 year old man doesn't need his parents to make decisions for him.
Eh, well the only Egyptian that was warned by Moses was the pharaoh, can you tell me where in the Bible I can find the information that Moses warned everyone (which is contrary to what is in my Bibles)?
1. There were lots of people who went to the palace, and this Israelite, who everyone thought were all suppose to be out slaving, is here addressing the Pharaoh. I think people would have been talking.
2. Also, It was the tenth plague, you think people would have seen the power of God destroying their country, and have enough sense to go into Goshen. It's common sense. And when i say "go into Goshen" i mean take refuge in the houses with blood painted on their door posts, like some Egyptians did do.
But you do know that God set this whole thing up? God made it impossible for pharaoh to agree to let the Hebrews go, specifically so that God could show the Egyptians how powerful He is. This is what the Bible itself tells us, you really should go read it, it is a wonderful tale.
Wrong. The bible says God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but that doesn't mean God forced him to not accept Moses' request. It means that Pharaoh was presented with the truth, and, like so many people now, he rejected it. It didn't match with his agenda. Pharaoh was thought to be a God personified. God didn't force Pharaoh to be obstinate, Pharaoh just chose to be that way after God presented him with the truth. God can't force anyone to do anything, that would take away free will. If God forces people, how do you know he's not forcing you to debate with me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Brian, posted 11-10-2007 8:24 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 205 by Brian, posted 11-10-2007 5:11 PM Raphael has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 204 of 217 (433154)
11-10-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Raphael
11-10-2007 11:51 AM


Re: *Sigh*
Wrong. The bible says God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but that doesn't mean God forced him to not accept Moses' request. It means that Pharaoh was presented with the truth, and, like so many people now, he rejected it. It didn't match with his agenda. Pharaoh was thought to be a God personified. God didn't force Pharaoh to be obstinate, Pharaoh just chose to be that way after God presented him with the truth. God can't force anyone to do anything, that would take away free will. If God forces people, how do you know he's not forcing you to debate with me?
But what you claim is simply not what the Bible says.
Exodus 9:12
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Exodus 10:1
[ The Plague of Locusts ] Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them
Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
Exodus 14:8
The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.
Not only does the Bible say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it explains why. The reason according to the Bible was that God wanted to show off.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Raphael, posted 11-10-2007 11:51 AM Raphael has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 205 of 217 (433224)
11-10-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Raphael
11-10-2007 11:51 AM


Re: *Sigh*
Of course I've read them. Have you?
Of course, how else would I know that what you are proposing is not in the Bible?
Obviously he could have went himself, a 65 year old man doesn't need his parents to make decisions for him.
Again you are assuming that EVERY Egyptian knew about the cull.
But I did ask:
Also, for those parents who were alive, when and how did they have the chance to save their children? Where in the Bible can I find this information?
So, where in the Bible can I find the information that you claim is there?
Also, you say that the children are innocent but the parents are guilty, so you are saying that God would kill this innocent 65 year old man!
Why do you worship such a barbaric entity?
1. There were lots of people who went to the palace, and this Israelite, who everyone thought were all suppose to be out slaving, is here addressing the Pharaoh. I think people would have been talking.
What YOU think is immaterial. We are talking here about the Bible version of the Exodus. Now where in the Bible do I find the information that anyone other than the Pharaoh was warned?
2. Also, It was the tenth plague, you think people would have seen the power of God destroying their country, and have enough sense to go into Goshen.
Go into the land of Goshen FROM where?
The Israelites were made slaves and used to build the cities of Rameses and Pithom. Pi-Rameses was the capital of the empire, Rameses II lived there, and guess where Pithom and Rameses are located.
However, I did ask:
can you tell me where in the Bible I can find the information that Moses warned everyone (which is contrary to what is in my Bibles)?
So I take it you cannot give biblical support.
It's common sense. And when i say "go into Goshen" i mean take refuge in the houses with blood painted on their door posts, like some Egyptians did do.
Where in the Bible does it say this? Where does the Bible say that Egyptians took refuge in Israelite houses?
Wrong. The bible says God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but that doesn't mean God forced him to not accept Moses' request.
Jar provides the BIBLE verses in his post that proves how wrong you are.
You have a lot to learn mate, but it is good to have you here.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 217 (442973)
12-23-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by nator
03-17-2007 8:55 PM


Re: Watch that first commandment
Nator writes:
You forgot a third option.
"Not worship anything at all".
Well...what about rampant materialism? It seems that we come darn near to worshiping that at this time of year! The retailers are flipping out over mediocre sales. What do they expect from us?
Edited by Phat, : added link

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imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 207 of 217 (447021)
01-07-2008 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
03-13-2007 9:03 PM


Absolutly no idea
who God is, and frankly I wouldn't want to be you when you find out.
Let's assume that assumptions aren't the mother of all mistakes.
I'll give you the short version. God created man for one reason, to have a personal intimate relationship with him. It was His desire to walk with us, talk with us, love us, and in returned be loved by us. We, man, chose Jimmy Highschoolboy's pornia concerning Suzie rather than a relationship with God. We, man, told God to get lost, much like you are doing. Here in is where your 'assumed' problem with entropy comes into play. It is Gods providential grace that holds the whole universe together. The Bibles says that God upholds and sustains the universe, that without Him it would cease to exist. When we told God to get lost, that we wanted to live our own lives without Him, He removed just a tiny portion of that providential grace. Some entropy was present from the begining, being necessary for locomotion and digestion, but the world and the universe has been under a greater portion of entropy since our rebelion against God.
Now, why does He care. I don't know if you had a father, and I don't know if your father was good, but God is a good Father. The best in fact, and He has provided man with everything man needs. Air to breath, food to eat, light to iluminate the day, and darkness to usher in the night. He has provided everything we need down to the molecular level. And how do we thank Him? In the words of little Jimmy we tell Him to suck it. Now if you where God would you care? Would your wrath be kindled just a little bit to brats like us? You cannot tell me that if you provided everything someone else needed for them to survive for the rest of their life, if they then turned around and spit in your face, that you would not care. I belong to the LORD God almighty, whether I believe it or not, I live because He allows me to live, I will die when He is ready for me to die. I will not live a single second past the time He has apointed for me nor shall I leave a second sooner that He has ordained. I have no doubt that if He so chose He sould wipeout the entire universe and any evidence of it's existance, and He can make another one that looks just like it.
P.S. That's pure gut right there.

Disclaimer: Topical discretion is advised.
This post may contain information, logic/reason exercises, and/or questions used to illustate what I base my logical conclusions on and to expond upon a particular idea. That information/etc. should not be debated in this thread, and any questions that do not fit the topic should not be answered in this thread. Many of these questions/etc. are retorical and/or are included to elicit a mental response not necessaraly a verbal (or in this case a literary) one.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 208 of 217 (447035)
01-07-2008 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by imageinvisible
01-07-2008 7:30 PM


Re: Absolutly no idea
imageinvisible
who God is, and frankly I wouldn't want to be you when you find out.
Yes if you cannot win by force of evidence it is always better to fall back on the Christian love ploy and threaten someone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by imageinvisible, posted 01-07-2008 7:30 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
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imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 209 of 217 (447077)
01-07-2008 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by sidelined
01-07-2008 8:30 PM


Re: Absolutly no idea
No. The evidence both physical and spiritual is enough for me. The threat is real but it is not from me and I do not have the power to carry out that threat. I do this for one reason and one reason alone. Because the threat is real, and when my time on earth is done, I want to know that I did everything I could. That I gave it all that I had to give, and left the rest up to God. I have been given a commision by God to lead as many to salvation as I can. It has nothing to do with money, fame, fortune, or even a decent life, the glory is His and His alone. You can think whatever you want about me and about God, but ultimately you are the one who has to decide what you do with the information you have been given. My prayer though is that you come to understand just how much He realy loves you, and that He does not want to see you choose destruction over a personal relationship with Him.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by sidelined, posted 01-08-2008 12:48 AM imageinvisible has replied
 Message 211 by NosyNed, posted 01-08-2008 1:47 AM imageinvisible has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 210 of 217 (447083)
01-08-2008 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by imageinvisible
01-07-2008 11:55 PM


Re: Absolutly no idea
imageinvisible
The threat is real but it is not from me and I do not have the power to carry out that threat.
Not at all.The threat is only generated by the claims of writing from the dusty long dead dreams and agendas of people deceased before any inkling of modern understanding arrived in the consciousness of humanity.
Because the threat is real, and when my time on earth is done, I want to know that I did everything I could. That I gave it all that I had to give, and left the rest up to God. I have been given a commision by God to lead as many to salvation as I can.
You have to wonder how it is that God never seems to be able to do these things for himself eh?
Hell the biggest detriment to any direction I would even begin to take towards such drivel would is nullified by the incessant pandering to such obvious human agendas and politics. What would an omnipotent omniscient God need with human efforts and articulations.
How odd it is that the claim that a God really exists is so vehemently backed by people with such ill conceived means of conviction and argument in their favour.
You can think whatever you want about me and about God, but ultimately you are the one who has to decide what you do with the information you have been given
And which of the literally thousands of different POV's concerning God and right action etc etc do you pretend to be able to tell me is correct at all?
Sorry, the greatest likelihood is not that God is a rational entity that exists but the workings of irrational people desperate for a father figure to take them away from the responsibility for and the acceptance of the facts of life.
My prayer though is that you come to understand just how much He realy loves you, and that He does not want to see you choose destruction over a personal relationship with Him.
Funny how God seems to find it necessary to never deal in the first person for one excuse or another.
Did you catch the love reference in the same sentence with destruction? Ah, Christian love, you gotta fear it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by imageinvisible, posted 01-07-2008 11:55 PM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
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