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Author Topic:   The irresolvability of the creation/evolution debate
boysherpa
Junior Member (Idle past 5372 days)
Posts: 19
From: Lomita, CA
Joined: 10-04-2008


Message 46 of 98 (487430)
10-31-2008 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Aven
11-10-2007 11:15 AM


The point of the debate is...
(Refer to post 1 and 3)
Fun post, and great discussion topic. Although I am reading it 1 year later, thanks Aven!
My thoughts: Finally, someone who realizes why these debates exists. Pick your favorite: Abortion, Gay marriage, whatever. The debates are often about two groups talking past each other from different starting points and with different schools of though. Aven has captured some relevant details of this concept, albeit in abstract form, and put it out there for all to see.
Mostly, SideA will evaluate SideB using SideA's criteria for quality of arguments. Unfortunately, what we don't have is a set of "golden" criteria to settle the debate with a score for each side. (Forgive me, Aven, for "colloquializing" your post).
To me, this is why the debate is unresolvable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Aven, posted 11-10-2007 11:15 AM Aven has not replied

  
chemscience
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 98 (487462)
10-31-2008 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by onifre
10-31-2008 12:05 PM


Re: Onifre Goodby!
ONIFRE, You proclaim:
"I don't think you have much of an argument other than what you've read on creationist websites but it'll be fun to find out...you know, for shits and giggles."
You scatalogically claim the intellectual high ground, by proclamation, not proof. This is a tactic common to closed minds.
I've participated in no creationist website; haven't read one in years; don't need to. Most insist on a 144 hour creation schedule that's poor exogesis and disregards geology, paleontology & astronomy. I've investigated the issue 50+ years.
I'll not swap insults with you. Your contempt for contray opinion is bad form. I see no gain in being the target of your giggles & XXXs.
Consider Pascal's Wager. Good by.
CHEMSCIENCE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by onifre, posted 10-31-2008 12:05 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by onifre, posted 10-31-2008 6:45 PM chemscience has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 48 of 98 (487470)
10-31-2008 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by chemscience
10-31-2008 5:55 PM


Re: Onifre Goodby!
"I don't think you have much of an argument other than what you've read on creationist websites but it'll be fun to find out...you know, for shits and giggles."
You scatalogically claim the intellectual high ground, by proclamation, not proof. This is a tactic common to closed minds.
I've participated in no creationist website; haven't read one in years; don't need to. Most insist on a 144 hour creation schedule that's poor exogesis and disregards geology, paleontology & astronomy. I've investigated the issue 50+ years.
Ok, and like I said we'll find out. Im not closed minded, I enjoy a good debate, but your first post with the 20 or so things that are wrong about evolution was just flat out nonsense. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but I don't care. This is a debate forum so argue your point.
I'll not swap insults with you. Your contempt for contray opinion is bad form. I see no gain in being the target of your giggles & XXXs.
If I offended you by using the word shit, then fuck im sorry, I didn't mean to be a dick. Im usually not sensitive to the shit people don't want to hear, I can be a fuckhead like that sometimes. Hope to see you on the threads though, don't let my brash behaviour turn you off...im a cool guy, just give me a chance.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by chemscience, posted 10-31-2008 5:55 PM chemscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by chemscience, posted 11-01-2008 2:10 AM onifre has replied

  
chemscience
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 98 (487501)
11-01-2008 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by onifre
10-31-2008 6:45 PM


Re: Onifre Hello Again!
An impressive apology, Onifre, which I accept. Let there be Peace and Dignity between us. We can disagree w/o being disagreeable. My feelings are intact, unhurt, but I do avoid dogfights.
You challenge my first post: “Your first post with the 20 or so things that are wrong about evolution was just flat out nonsense.”
I’ll not do all 20 right away, let’s see about the first 11:
The initial 7 have to do with cosmology, the origin/creation of the universe, 8-11 concern undirected assembly of the amino-acids from which the proteins in all living things are consstructed.
On the Origin of the Universe there are generally agreed to be only 2 possibilities. A. God created the both the design and substance of the universe. I hold this belief, which has a great economy for comprehension: God did it.
B. Somehow the universe designed and created itself out of nothing. Usually evolutionists believe this. This necessitates an infinite series of undirected fortunate events producing all creation.
My statements:
1. “Every effect must have an equal cause” derives from the 1st law of thermodynamics, which states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change forms.
2 & 3 “100 Billion galaxies were compressed into a point smaller than an atom: is the basic premise of the Big Bang paradigm, which posits that all matter & energy were originally compressed into a sub-microscopic point which exploded into our universe. BBT (Theory)holds that nothing existed prior to the BB
4. The explosion event is called a Singularity by believers. Right here comes an unanswerable objection which is expressed in Colin Ronan’s book “The Universe Explained”: “One of the most vexed questions facing astronomers is that of how much matter there is in the universe . results suggest there is barely 1% OF THE MASS THAT THE UNIVERSE SHOULD CONTAIN ACCORDING TO THE BIG BANG THEORY. There must be a vast amount of “dark matter that we simply cannot see.”
“There must be” is a statement of faith, metaphysics. There's no reality to this conjecture, it’s simply a patch required if you're committed to the BBT. The 1% figure has been fudged up to about 20% since the book was published in ’94 by Henry Holt & Co., New York. Believers agree most of the mass in the universe is invisible, doen't occlude or radiate light, and is undetectable except by arcane derivative ad-hoc theorizing. [Or it could be that they don’t understand gravity.] The universe doesn’t hold enough matter to fulfill the mathematics of the theory. The poet said:
As I was going up the stair. I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today, O how I wish he’d go away!
6 & 7 Dark matter & dark energy are now imagined to supply the necessary mass (weight) required to make the BBT possible. No one has seen either, they are simply ad-hoc propositions. But today’s osmologists fervently search/imagine/theorize their existence.
8. In 1952 H. Urey & Stanley Miller at the Univ/Chicago produced amino acids by exposing a mix of gasses (CO2, Methane CH4 & Ammonia NH3) to a 50,000 volt spark for a week. The reaction products were isolated from the energy source to prevent decomposition. They assumed that Earth’s early atmosphere was reducing, non-oxygenic, similar to the gas giants, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus; and lightning & cosmic radiation supplied the energy to duplicate their lab experiment, forming amino acids which precipitated into the sea until it became a vast “pre-biotic soup”.
This is called the “Spark in the Soup Theory “ in Richard Milner’s Encyclopedia of Evolution.
9. There’s no evidence at all that Earth had such an atmosphere, which would be evidenced geologically. It would be fatal to life. No one explains how it converted to the 78%N + 21%O we enjoy.
10. Amino acids are small structures, over 100 have been identified. Random synthesis produces equal quantities of right handed and left handed ones, but only levo, left-handed, are used in the proteins of all living things. There are 20 in our flesh, composed of 10 to 27 atoms each, variously assembled into 30-50,000 proteins some with 10,000 amino acids, strung together like beads on a chain which electrostatically influence their configuration with one another in such a way to form the specific molecules of life.
AAs are labil, break down easily. Linked AAs are called peptides. Proteins could be called large biological polypeptides. For example hemoglobin is a construction of 574 amino acids in 4 polypeptide chains. These are absolutely specific. Substitute Valine for Glutamic Acid at position 6 of the B chain and you get Sickle Cell Anemia.
11. The assembly of AAs into proteins takes place in our cells by a linkage which involves the loss of 2 Hydrogen atoms from the amino [NH3] site and the loss of an atom of oxygen form the carboxyl [CO2] site of the adjacent amino acid, forming a molecule of H2O. It’s a DEHYDRATION PROCESS and could not accumulate in the sea, nor persist, because peptides dissolve when hydrolyzed.
On authority lists 19 separate steps and dozens of enzymes required for protein synthesis within cells. The critical question is: Source of information? Where did the precise design for tens of thousands of proteins in you originate? Or for the tens of millions of species which have existed on our planet?
I think the doctrine this perfection of precision came without a designer is simply ludicrous! Your body also makes sugars, fats, DNA, and living cells more complicated than the electrical/communication systems of a city of millions. Consider the complexity of a single micro-organism which Jehovah placed in you to combat pathogenic invaders, T4 PHAGE, it hunts down and eats bacteria:
Molecular weight of its DNA: 120,000,000 120 million!
Specificity is 10 to the 78,000th power = 1 chance in 10 X 78,000 zeros.
No matter how many athiestic materialists shout the evidence down: it calls for a design & designer, who's name alone is Jehovah. Psalm 83:18
SO WHERE'S THE "FLAT OUT NONSENSE", ONIFRE?
CHEMSCIENCE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by onifre, posted 10-31-2008 6:45 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Huntard, posted 11-01-2008 4:00 AM chemscience has not replied
 Message 51 by onifre, posted 11-01-2008 9:21 AM chemscience has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 50 of 98 (487509)
11-01-2008 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by chemscience
11-01-2008 2:10 AM


Re: Onifre Hello Again!
Hello Chemscience. Just to let you know, I started the thread you wanted, it's over at: http://EvC Forum: Evolutionary idiocy (More or less standard dogma)? -->EvC Forum: Evolutionary idiocy (More or less standard dogma)?
Perhaps you can take your answer to Onifre there, and he can answer you in that thread.
If you do so, I'll also react to the things you pointed out to Onifre.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by chemscience, posted 11-01-2008 2:10 AM chemscience has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 51 of 98 (487528)
11-01-2008 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by chemscience
11-01-2008 2:10 AM


Re: Onifre Hello Again!
Hi chemsci,
I'll see you on Huntards thread...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by chemscience, posted 11-01-2008 2:10 AM chemscience has not replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 52 of 98 (492072)
12-28-2008 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Aven
11-10-2007 1:56 AM


science and creation are not unresolved
Greetings
My real name is Robert
For years now I been quietly watching as the debate continues, one against the other, creation versus science. The action alone is the cause for the all the hype and grief.
I have found a way to place the Genesis account and the theory of evolution side by side, in harmony.
Having done so, I realize how easy the discussion is.
There are of course discussions essential that must take place first.
I wonder how many there are, who might be willing to surrender their
positions, their beliefs, for the sake of resolve?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Aven, posted 11-10-2007 1:56 AM Aven has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 12-28-2008 5:12 AM thief has not replied
 Message 54 by cavediver, posted 12-28-2008 5:52 AM thief has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 53 of 98 (492090)
12-28-2008 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by thief
12-28-2008 1:54 AM


Re: science and creation are not unresolved
thief writes:
I wonder how many there are, who might be willing to surrender their positions, their beliefs, for the sake of resolve?
You mean sacrifice truth for the sake of agreement? You first.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 1:54 AM thief has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 54 of 98 (492092)
12-28-2008 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by thief
12-28-2008 1:54 AM


Re: science and creation are not unresolved
I have found a way to place the Genesis account and the theory of evolution side by side, in harmony.
What has Genesis to do with anything? It is simply a false myth written to hide the truth of how Ahura Mazda created the world. Let me know when you have found a way to place Zoroastrianism and evolution side by side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 1:54 AM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 9:26 AM cavediver has not replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 55 of 98 (492100)
12-28-2008 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by cavediver
12-28-2008 5:52 AM


Re: science and creation are not unresolved
Greetings and On Guard!
Sword play is a skill, gentlemen.
Obviously, you display your love of contention first.
I fear greatly to lose this debate.
Not that I have error in my own supposition, but that you would digress immediately to topics and viewpoint which cannot assist.
Put away your swords.
I am your fellow servant.
Shall we not define some sense of direction first?
Where I am coming from is Genesis as written by Moses.
Then followed by a discreet 'nay' saying.
As I proceed I would ask first your patience....
and then your mind and hearts.
Seeing that you have sword in hand I give you fair warning
Later on Someone will ask of me...what did you say?
I will fess up and repeat what I have said
He will than ask if I told anyone else.
I will fess up again
That's when your names come up.
We are all accountable for whatever we say 'yeah' to.
Likewise for our denials.
Are you sure you are up for this?
thief

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by cavediver, posted 12-28-2008 5:52 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Percy, posted 12-28-2008 9:33 AM thief has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 56 of 98 (492101)
12-28-2008 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by thief
12-28-2008 9:26 AM


Re: science and creation are not unresolved
Good grief.
I just hope you still remember your point by the time you get there.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 9:26 AM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 9:47 AM Percy has not replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 57 of 98 (492104)
12-28-2008 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Percy
12-28-2008 9:33 AM


Re: science and creation are not unresolved
ok fine!
Let's see how quick you really are.
Day one...light
Day two...heaven
Day three...all things green and seed bearing
Day four... the seasons are set in motion
Day five...all things that swim or fly
Day six... all things that walk...including us
See anything wrong in this quick list?
Be careful
Your response reflects your problem solving abilities.
It is this skill that brings resolve.
If your response lacks evidence of proper spirit..
I might well leave you as you are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Percy, posted 12-28-2008 9:33 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by lyx2no, posted 12-28-2008 9:56 AM thief has replied
 Message 60 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2008 10:44 AM thief has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 58 of 98 (492105)
12-28-2008 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by thief
12-28-2008 9:47 AM


Harmony Reigns
This is already being done with less gibberish over at "Does the Bible Say the Earth was Created in Six Days, 6000 years ago?"
It's pure bliss over there.

Don't do that Dave.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 9:47 AM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 10:23 AM lyx2no has not replied

  
thief
Junior Member (Idle past 5532 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 59 of 98 (492111)
12-28-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by lyx2no
12-28-2008 9:56 AM


Re: Harmony Reigns
Let's try something really different
I will place you between myself and Moses
I bid you to say to him
Hey old man! you do not understand what hangs above your head...
nor do you understand what lays beneath your feet.
Take a hike! to the east..if you live long enough you will cross a huge territory (we now call Asia). When you reach the far side..build an ark..with sails.. cross the ocean (we now call Pacific)...abandon the ark and cross the land (we now call America)..build another ark, with sails..cross the ocean (we now call Atlantic)...if you stray not far off course (South America or Africa) you will soon be home again.
At this point Moses would look you in the eye..and not with approval
Say to him then...the stars above are not candles held steadfast by the angels. They are instead huge balls of flaming hot gas, far larger than the earth, and so distant the light of such things requires thousands of years to be seen by us.
At this point Moses would likely pick up a rock.
So too his many followers.
And if you fail to turn quickly...run...never to be seen again
you could end up under a pile of rock, dying from suffocation.
But who is greater ...you or Moses?
You know what hangs above your head.
You know the earth is round
For lack of proof..Moses would have you dead for such words
But you know better...don't you?
Unless Moses should change his mind you will not have peace with him.
How scientific are you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by lyx2no, posted 12-28-2008 9:56 AM lyx2no has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by onifre, posted 12-28-2008 7:18 PM thief has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 60 of 98 (492114)
12-28-2008 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by thief
12-28-2008 9:47 AM


Re: science and creation are not unresolved
Day one...light
Day two...heaven
Day three...all things green and seed bearing
Day four... the seasons are set in motion
Day five...all things that swim or fly
Day six... all things that walk...including us
Except that the order is completely wrong.
If by heaven you mean the universe it would be first if you mean the mythical resting place, irrelevant
Light would follow with the formation of stars, seasons before any life.
seed bearing plants would come after swimming & walking and some flying creatures. Walking before flying. Just from the relationships of living things, your list is completely wrong.
Edited by bluescat48, : cross quote
Edited by bluescat48, : missing line

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 9:47 AM thief has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by thief, posted 12-28-2008 11:10 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
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