Universe Race

Percy wrote

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Dark matter wasn't proposed to explain the large scale structure of the universe, but to explain why on a much, much smaller scale that spinning galaxies don't fly apart.

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I would like to add something to this. Yes, while this is true, YECs have offered another explanation that, to lay people, would resolve this issue. All they have to claim is that the galaxies are very young and that is why they haven't flown apart yet.I think the more important thing to point out about the necessity of dark matter is that the galaxies are behaving more like spinning solid objects than our planetary model. In other words, the angular speeds of the stars toward the center of the galaxy are very close to the angular speeds of the stars toward the outside. If a galaxy is mostly composed of the visible objects, we would expect it to behave more or less like a planetary system, with the stars toward the edge having much less angular speeds than they do.We know that from what we can see there just isn't enough mass within a galaxy for such behaviors of the stars to occur. The only possible explanation, aside from goddidit, is that much of the matter in a galaxy is not visible to us.Anyhow, YECs have a much less enjoyable time attributing this galactic behavior to a young universe.Edited by teen4christ, : No reason given.Edited by teen4christ, : Fixed some speling gramar erors. Ben havin to many midterms.

ICANT wrote

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I understand the article very well thank you.

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With all due respect, I don't think you do.

Not entirely correct. A better description would be that the star speed are almost the same, as can be seen here, which means that galaxies don't spin like solid bodies

Hi Son, I don't find where in the beginning that the BBT says the universe is supposed to be homogeneous on the multi-verse scale. Only that it should be homogeneous and Isotropic.Homogeneity (physics) - Wikipedia Isotropic Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster These definitions says the universe should look like my neighborhood in which I live. Not scattered out like the different neighborhoods of the world.We have the Great Wall that is at least 500 million light years long and possibly much longer.We have a void of 500 million light years wide and one almost a billion light years wide.That is far from homogeneous.Gentlemen I am not trying to be difficult although you think I am.
I am constantly reminded that science is testable, verifiable and falsafiable.Then I am presented with the Big Bang Theory as science which is neither verifiable or falsafiable.Then I read:Open Letter on Cosmology Then I am pointed to a site where I find:
http://space.newscientist.com/...ery-about-to-be-solved.html " the rest we call dark matter and dark energy. What they actually are, though, is anyone's guess."Nobody knows what it is we just know that it is.Son tells me: "This has nothing to do with dark matter." (The clumpiness ). But I find:CfA2 Great Wall - Wikipedia If this information is incorrect it can be edited.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Percy, I didn't realize I was in such a hurry. I raised these objections over a week ago and got very little response. Son pointed me to a site concerning the clusters and dark matter.In the article it said it seemed to be real.I am not saying there is nothing there. In fact I believe there is awesome power that holds the galaxies and the universe together. I believe that same power spread out the galaxies as we see them today.You may think I haven't learned anything but I think I have like the fact in my avatar the inset picture top right is of a cluster of 12 galaxies that is over 10 billion light years from us.
Picture from Here
God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

So you're trying to squeeze your god into science by replacing (gravity from dark matter) with (god's direct intervention)? Adding a picture from astronomy and being able to say what it's a picture of doesn't change the fact that you never did comprehend the expansion of the Universe despite a few hundred posts attempting to help you learn (the original topic of the thread, of course), you still don't understand even the barest fraction of Big Bang cosmology, and frankly you have no hope of understanding dark matter either if you continue to try to force your religious views into the model.You need to put your faith aside and learn about science by itself, on its own terms before you can start contemplating your god's possible role in any of it. You seem to be 100% unwilling or possibly even incapable of doing that, so the fact is, you're just never going to get it. It's not the length of time that's the problem, ICANT. The problem is that you aren't waiting until you understand one topic before moving to the next. You're expecting us to explain jet engines when you still don't understand the basics of a car engine.

First, note that Son Goku wasn't talking about the multi-verse scale. This thread is about the universe, our universe, just the one universe.Second, homogeneity and isotropism are expected only at the largest scales. The webpage you linked to earlier, Wikipedia on the Cosmological Principle, was very explicit about this: I think you need to spend more time studying and less time concluding. The structures you mention are also far from a large scale, as people have been telling you. Your certainty is an artifact of your lack of knowledge. It was an open letter published in New Scientist, not an article. It concluded with an appeal for funding for non-mainstream cosmology theories. It's leading signatory was Halton Arp, known for his rejection of the red shift's correlation with distance. He thinks quasars are local objects ejected from galactic cores. Time and again he has identified rapidly receding objects (which accepted theory says must be distant) that appear to be in front of nearby objects, and which time and again improving telescopes have shown to be behind the nearby object. Arp has trouble getting funding because of his well-established habit of being wrong. If you were working at gaining familiarity with the subject matter you would have discovered this. The observational evidence says that it's there. That we don't happen to know what it is doesn't mean that it isn't there. Just like an Unidentified Flying Object, where the fact that we can't identify it doesn't mean there was no flying object at all, the fact that we do not at present know the nature of dark matter doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is obvious, basic stuff that anyone should understand.About dark matter dictating the structure of the universe on the grandest scales, the hypothesis mentioned in the Wikipedia Great Wall article that you cited, that seems like stepping pretty far out on a limb given the current state of knowledge, but I'll wait to hear what Cavediver and Son Goku have to say.--Percy

{clicked wrong button}Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Hi Percy, Michael Anissimov wrote about The Bootes void in 2003.What is the BoTes Void? (with picture) http://space.newscientist.com/...ion-light-years-across.html This void being 4 times larger than the Bootes void creates a big absence of anything in the universe.The Great Wall I mentioned is a cluster of Galaxies and is only half as large as this void is.Am I missing something if I conclude that with a hole that size in it the universe is not homogeneous?If I am please explain.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Yes, you're missing something: the scale is not large enough. At the scale where you are looking at the entire Universe, it appears basically homogeneous. At smaller scales, you can see structures like the one's you're mentioning. At much smaller scales, you can see galactic clusters. And so on.Yet again, you don't understand the material you're criticizing. Follow Percy's advice: more research, more questions, less conclusions.

Hi Rahvin, Just because I don't believe like you do does not mean that I do not understand what has been discussed:Singularity: Is a place where GR math formulas break down and can not give an answer that makes sense.Matter: no idea where it came from.T=O: Science says we don't know, can't say anything about this.T=O^40: Universe is expanding. BBT covers from here on.Inflation: Universe expanding very rapidly.Expansion: Universe expanding until today.Dark Matter: Holds the universe together. What this matter is has not been discovered yet.Homogeneous universe: with all the holes and Great walls north and south. It still matches the predictions of the BBT.Feel free to correct me where I messed up.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

My understanding is that the period of the greater rate of expansion allegedly took less than a second whereas the period of the lesser rate of expansion took fifteen billion years or so.I believe CT posed the point that such a high rate of initial expansion would effect an unimaginable amount of inertia with nothing outside of the expansion to slow the rate of the inertia driven expansion.My question is:What slowed the rate of the expansion? I've not read a lot of the thread so perhaps if this has been answered you could cite that for me. Thanks.Edited by Buzsaw, : Edited Cavediver's quote at his request

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

probably an unknown.from what I've seen dark matter is the T=0 energy. it cannot be viewed because there are no two points to measure from.earlier, i seen where someone said the universe was like a liquid. it may be the "water of life" as referred to by the bible. the very pure body of God. this water would also be dark matter in its original form. although calling it "dark matter" is because it cannot be seen and measured, is kinda silly, because God says he is the light of the world.the more i read everyone posts the more i see how today's theories are consistent to what i have offered in this post. that the universe is the body of the T=0 energy, that was intelligent, and created all that is.what i can't figure out is why so many "smart" people are so blind.

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keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

No, there is no inertia. Nothing is moving. Space is simply expanding. The ultra-expansion of inflation is driven by a field, very like the dark energy. In fact, the dark energy we talk about could very well be (in part) a remnant of the inflation-driving field. Both cause an expansion of the Universe over and above that we would expect from the simple matter distribution of the Universe. The inflation stopped because the strength of the inflating field died away, caused itself in part by the extreme expansion it had effected upon the Universe - you can think of the inflation diluting the effect of the field.Can you do me a favour? You quote me in your post, but the typesetting has gone awry. Where it says: can you please change it to Thanks

At that scale the Universe is not homogeneous. We already know this. At scales that matter, the Universe is extremely homogeneous, as is shown by CMBR.