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Author Topic:   Hypocritical Leviticus
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 31 of 36 (463282)
04-14-2008 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Otto Tellick
04-14-2008 9:48 PM


Re: It might have been interesting, but...
quote:
But we seem to have strayed off-topic for this thread, which has to do with an apparent discrepancy between the moral status of incest, as expressed in Leviticus, and the biological necessities of reproduction for the first generations after Adam and Eve, (and for that matter, after the great flood -- I suppose mating with first cousins, as presumably happened among Noah's grandchildren, might not have been incestuous according to Leviticus, though it is frowned upon today). In any case, who knows what really happened? Virtually nothing is said of any daughters, or of who married whom.
Incest, and what constitutes it, is very well enumerated in Leviticus, which does not present this law without a copious listing. Strangely, it is permitted for a man to marry his neice, but not a woman marrying a nephew: this has scientific impacts, not feminist issues.
We have a situation which is very coherently acceptable, that at one time, the first emergence of modern humans would have been either one or a set of one family unit, and that incest for repro was unavoidable. The issue of this being a sin, as included in Leviticus later on, must be measured by other factors and laws in the same source, as this an intergrated document. Sin/crime/violation of a law - only occurs when this is done wantonly, intentionally and with full mental ability. We know for example, that Jacob married two sisters, and that this was not accounted as a sin - this is because the law against incest was not yet revealed [Moses appeared 400 years later]. This would apply to Noah and all space-times prior to Moses.
For a law to be active and effective - it must be written down and mandated as law - this is how the judiciary system works today. If it is not written as a law - it is not a law. There is no contradiction in Leviticus; it is also scientifically vindicated that marrying kin is prone to numerous problems. So both Genesis and Leviticus are subject to and vindicated today - because they are testable and attestable.
It does not mean that where certain factors are not seen the same, that Genesis is not scientific or that it is scientifically incorrect: it is more probable the issue of the current scientific understanding is in error. Example: Geneis posits some factors which may or may not be in allignment with today's status quo of science, including:
The universe is finite; that speech is less than 6000 years old and casts modern humans a seperate species by virture of that attribute; that the first of every species were dual-gendered singularities, namely that Adam & Eve were two positive/negative humans in one ['Male and female created he them']; that evolution is 'seed' factored as opposed million year dna mutations; etc. These factors are difficult to prove or disprove - they are not scientifically disproven - nothing whatsoever is negated in genesis. Mostly, people disdain anything connected with religion - but genesis is not just a religion - it is far more than that - religions have nothing to say on science and the universe origins! Further, any variances with today's science does not make genesis non-scientific; it only signifies a different scientific perspective. Genesis is in fact the first scientific treatise, opening with an account of creation which is both cosmology and biology. It is perhaps the most mysterious document in existence.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-14-2008 9:48 PM Otto Tellick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-15-2008 12:50 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2331 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 32 of 36 (463292)
04-15-2008 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by IamJoseph
04-14-2008 11:09 PM


Re: It might have been interesting, but...
IamJoseph writes:
... speech is less than 6000 years old ...
Oops, here we go, straying off topic again. I'm not directly familiar with any evidence about the timing of the onset of speech, but the figure you give represents the currently known maximum time-depth for extant physical records of language (i.e. speech being transmuted into visual symbols that could be preserved as durable objects).
There are much older human artifacts attesting to image-based symbolism, as opposed to linguistic symbolism: cave paintings and carved figures that have been carefully measured to be considerably older than 6000 years -- cf. the Lascaux drawings, dated at about 31,000 years before the present. (This of course depends on your willingness to accept the preponderance of evidence for dating techniques, even though they contradict certain interpretations of Genesis.) I think it's reasonable to posit that human language is a prerequisite for accomplishing this sort of artwork.
As for the rest of your points, I find them puzzling. What is the "scientific" (as opposed to feminist) impact of the uncle-niece vs. aunt-nephew asymmetry in biblical law? If it's 400 years from Jacob to Moses, how many years was it from Noah to Jacob, and how is it that the Egyptians became so well established (and so alien and hostile) in that time, having presumably descended directly from Noah's children? (I suspect there will be some discrepancies in the timelines of Egyptian and Hebrew records, particularly with regard to the timing of the flood.) Doesn't it warp the definition of "religion" to say that Genesis is not a religious text? What is the point of referring to Genesis as scientific, and also as "the most mysterious document in existence"? (Okay, there's mystery in science, but scientific discourse needs to be rigorously clear -- at least for the folks who actively pursue it and keep up with the vocabulary. It's only mysterious to people (the majority) who don't keep up, and that's different from the kind of mystery as is admittedly rampant in Genesis.)
Nevermind -- don't feel obliged to answer any of those questions -- it's all too far afield, I'm just pointing out the difficulty I have in following your reasoning.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by IamJoseph, posted 04-14-2008 11:09 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by IamJoseph, posted 04-22-2008 8:27 AM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 33 of 36 (463442)
04-17-2008 7:05 AM


Testing
This is a green backround.

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by teen4christ, posted 04-17-2008 11:08 AM jaywill has replied

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 5799 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 34 of 36 (463451)
04-17-2008 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jaywill
04-17-2008 7:05 AM


It's amazing how someone who has racked up almost 1600 posts never noticed before the practice makes perfect forum.
AbE: Not to mention the preview feature or the [thread] dBCode.
Edited by Admin, : Add comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jaywill, posted 04-17-2008 7:05 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jaywill, posted 04-28-2008 5:15 PM teen4christ has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 35 of 36 (463945)
04-22-2008 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Otto Tellick
04-15-2008 12:50 AM


Re: It might have been interesting, but...
quote:
but the figure you give represents the currently known maximum time-depth for extant physical records of language (i.e. speech being transmuted into visual symbols that could be preserved as durable objects).
Not really. Human recall does not require writings, as with folksongs, recipes and cultural traditions. A *NAME* 6,100 years old will KO me. The point you have missed is, aside from having no evidences - that very premise of not having written evidence, and relying on this factor, makes Genesis a huge mystery no less. Fact is, we have no history per se pre-6000 [Hint!-Nudge!].
Burials, beads, cave scratchings, alledged agriculture - have no impact - even as these are not seen in transit grads of populations and mental prowess. Like it or not - you have to give the point to Genesis for its bold, daring, high risk declaration. I think its crazy for any document to brave such a stat - and its even more crazy how it is vindicated.
Liviticus must be measured relative to its space time - and how it is way ahead: consider it is posited in the world's first advanced alphabetical book [HINT! NUDGE!] - whatever happened to all those mighty nations which preceded and then lasted 2000 years after - where are their alphabetical books and how is mental advancement measured?
This is the first document which forbade human sacrifice - which was conducted for a 1000 years after elsewhere. Liviticus forbade animal sacrifice any place but the temple - thereby eliminating 99% of daily sacrifices. Leviticus forbade any sacrifice for wanton crimes, and limited this to accidental crimes - thus making a punishment for a wanton crime inescapable. Liviticus made all such sacrifices subject to the temple standing - marking the exact period all sacrfices becoming null and void 2000 years ago. The brilliance of this stratagem was done by not disregarding the nature of man, which prevailed for 1000s of years of inculcated animal and human sacrifices ingrained as a belief: often a family would sacrifice their most cherished child on the advice of a soerceror. Leviticus forbade sorcery. Medicine, a foremost faculty of science, comes from here: the first seperation from the occult occured with the ID, treatment and quarantine of contagious and infectious malignancies such as leprosy.
leviticus did all this in a manner which totally eliminated one's inherent desire and belief of this faculty for sacrifice - and it made its adherants miles ahead of the rest of the world. It did it by 'CONSIDERING THE NATURE OF MAN' and 'SPEAKING IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE'. Leviticus did not demand people worship half-man/half-beast deities bashing other deities to reign supreme, but presented an invisable, indescribable, unknowable Creator: has anyone yet been able to negate, disprove or better that one - or is Leviticus totally vindicated today?
Thus one must be relative when they pick on an issue - else it constitues either an ignorance or a lie-by-imission. *THINK* about it again - does one have to be a rocket scientist in 2008 to say sacrifice is bad - and how do you say that 3,500 years ago? Therein is the rub.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-15-2008 12:50 AM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 36 of 36 (464719)
04-28-2008 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by teen4christ
04-17-2008 11:08 AM


It's amazing how someone who has racked up almost 1600 posts never noticed before the practice makes perfect forum.
AbE: Not to mention the preview feature or the Windsor castle dBCode.
Teen4christ,
In those 1600 or so posts I have been paying more attention to other things to which I apparently gave a higher priority.
Sorry. Research into those other matters took up my time I guess.
But hey! I'm playing with the big boys now !
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by teen4christ, posted 04-17-2008 11:08 AM teen4christ has not replied

  
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