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Author Topic:   Are there any comprehensive scientific studies of ID?
PaulK
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Message 16 of 34 (465060)
05-02-2008 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Coyote
05-02-2008 12:33 PM


Influencing education doesn't require producing a curriculum. They do have textbooks (If Pandas and People, Explore Evolution). They have bills in various states to dictate that criticisms of evolution be taught.
Of course you're right to say that ID can't be taught as such because there isn't anything to teach. But the ID movement gave up on that years ago. (Why they advocated it at all is a bit of a mystery, but there you are.)

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dwise1
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Message 17 of 34 (465062)
05-02-2008 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Coyote
05-02-2008 12:33 PM


As I recall -- I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in Flock of Dodos -- the Discovery Institute backed out of the Polk County case very quickly stating that ID wasn't ready for the classroom yet.
Like with creation science, opposing evolution is the primary purpose. Actually offering something to replace it is little more than an after-thought, if even that much.

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dwise1
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Member Rating: 5.4


Message 18 of 34 (465066)
05-02-2008 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by helenavm
05-01-2008 11:43 PM


Re: What theories?
My response would be "doesn't exist". If I may offer an analogy of sorts as explanation:
The anti-evolution movement of the 1920's was very successful. Through the enactment of "monkey laws" and pressure on school boards and textbook publishers they were successful in having the teaching of evolution in the public schools barred for over 40 years -- what was taught in the universities and what scientists practiced was another matter altogether that they didn't concern themselves with. But then all their work was undone in 1968 with Epperson vs Arkansas that struck down the "monkey laws" as unconstitutional (because they had a solely religious purpose). In response, the anti-evolution movement created a deception called "creation science" which gathered together several claims which it superficially scrubbed of overt religious references and then made the fraudulant claim to both the public and the courts that this consituted "scientific evidence" against evolution and should therefore be included in the schools "solely on scientific grounds". Even though it was no such thing.
Now, a few things to note there:
1. The sole function of these claims was to oppose evolution or to cast doubt on science. There was no real counter-claim being made and, if one examines a set of claims being made by any one creationist source one would find a lot of those claims directly contradicting each other -- that doesn't matter, just so long as they all oppose what science says.
2. They'll take a series of steps, usually starting with "equal time" and "balanced treatment" and leading to "well, you should at least include the negative evidence against evolution". The "balanced treatement" approach, as documented in the "balanced treatment" laws of the 1980's, was that schools could either teach evolution in which case "creation science" would be given equal time, or else they could not teach evolution in which case "creation science" would also not be taught. Remember that the goal was to eliminate evolution, so the latter choice was what they really wanted. And since "creation science" is nothing but "negative evidence against evolution", the "scaled-down" second choice to "balanced treatment" is really exactly the same thing.
3. (and more along the lines of what you're looking for)Creationist claims have a longer history than "creation science" itself. Every since the rise of science, there's been a creationist (in the general sense) tradition of trying to find scientific evidence supporting Christian beliefs. And even though a lot of it had been shoddy work done by amateurs, some of it was also done by real scientists -- in some cases, as with early geologists, this work led to them concluding that the evidence doesn't support their beliefs. Most that was published was published in their Christian community and included overt religious references and the jumping to conclusions that supported their religious presuppositions.
It was the works of #3 that "creation science" made use of. In that process, they chose the most sensational and "convincing-sounding" claims, because their purpose was to convince the public to support their political agenda of affecting public school curricula. There has been some serious and well-done creationist research performed, but that research is never used by the creationists because it's not sensational enough -- those creationist researchers are properly tentative about their findings, most of which are either inconclusive or else offer no support for creation or actually contradict their beliefs about creation.
Now, in many people's minds ID is just "creation science" using a different masquerade -- "creation science" played the game of "Hide the Bible" and now ID is playing the game of "Hide the Creationism". While it is true that creationists are indeed using ID in that fashion, ID itself predates that usage and actually has a history somewhat separate from "creation science".
Anyone more versed in the history of ID than I, feel free to correct me.
I view ID as having been created mainly by a lawyer, Phillip Johnson. I first encountered him in a 1981 episode of Nova in which he presented his views from his book, Darwin on Trial, that evolution fails because it does not follow courtroom rules of evidence. At the time, I thought "What a fool! Science isn't analogous to a courtroom trial, but rather to a police investigation." Much later, I found an essay by Johnson in which he presented his reason for opposing evolution: because it doesn't leave anything for God to do. That is a form of "God of the Gaps" reasoning, in which a scientific explanation is viewed as meaning that God had nothing to do with it -- you'll also see that a lot in "creation science" and it's recently cropped up again in a recent thread here. Add to that the typical ID approach of "gee, that's so complex that we can't explain it, so therefore goddidit", which is pure "God of the Gaps".
The main ID "theory" is that science practices philosophical materialism and that this must be corrected by making supernaturalistic explanations that include God a part of science -- they want to get God out of the unemployment line (not realizing that He's still pulling in royalty payments from everything He had done to create the universe and start it running). And their main goals, as described in the Wedge Document is to bring this about by through political, educational, and public relations means. Their goal is not create an actual unified ID theory, but rather to change science and society (by changing the effects that materialism have on society and its morals).
The problem with their "theory" is that it's flat-out wrong. Science does not employ philosophical materialism (the supernatural does not exist, God does not exist, matter and energy are all that there is), but rather methological materialism, which does not state that the supernatural does not exist, but rather that science cannot work with it nor deal with it so science can't and won't use supernaturalistic explanations.
Now, history-wise, ID had been developing somewhat independently of "creation science" for several years. But then in the mid-1980's when the defeat of the Arkansas and Louisiana "creation science" "balanced treatement" laws created the court precedence of recognizing "creation science" as the religious fraud that it had always been, that put such laws on a par with the 1920's "monkey laws": totally unusable by the anti-evolution movement. It was at that time that the anti-evolution movement switched to using ID as pin-for-pin plug-in replacement for "creation science". This formed the smoking-gun evidence in the Polk trial wherein the transformation of a "creation science" book, Of Pandas and People, into an ID book literally by substituting "intelligent design" for "creation science" (OK, I forget exactly what the original term was). It wasn't because ID was indeed "creation science" resurrected, but rather ID was being assimilated into "creation science". And while IDists are not necessarily young-earth creationists, they are politically savvy enough to be using those YECists to further the political goals of ID.
So, there is no real theory of ID nor any possible curriculum, because that is not what ID is about. The basis of ID is not science, but rather misunderstood philosophy and political activism to promote that misunderstanding.
As alluded to above (ie, regarding the existence of creationists attempting to perform actual honest research), there may well be scientists attempting to work on actual ID theory in the various sciences. And while I would think that ID would be more likely to publish such research than "creation science" would be, at the same time I wouldn't think it that likely, since honest ID research most likely would not help enough to advance their political agenda.
Edited by dwise1, : expanded ending slightly
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added a few more blank lines in the numbered sections after the "Now, a few things to note there:".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by helenavm, posted 05-01-2008 11:43 PM helenavm has replied

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helenavm
Junior Member (Idle past 5812 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 04-18-2008


Message 19 of 34 (465098)
05-03-2008 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by dwise1
05-02-2008 4:03 PM


Re: What theories?
dwise1 wrote:
There has been some serious and well-done creationist research performed, but that research is never used by the creationists because it's not sensational enough -- those creationist researchers are properly tentative about their findings, most of which are either inconclusive or else offer no support for creation or actually contradict their beliefs about creation.
Do you or anyone here have any names of works or any information about any of this research?Has it been published anywhere?
And while I would think that ID would be more likely to publish such research than "creation science" would be, at the same time I wouldn't think it that likely, since honest ID research most likely would not help enough to advance their political agenda..
If that were the case, it wouldn't truly be honest research, though, would it? I guess I am trying to find ID proponents more interested in exploring whether the universe actually contains properties that support some form of ID and seeing where that takes them rather than those who seek to fit their particular religious beliefs around the universe regardless of what they find.
I am a believer in God, but am in no way personally convinced that any one religion has it exactly right. My interest is in looking for evidence in the natural world that can enlighten the spiritual, rather than vice versa, if that makes any sense.

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Deftil
Member (Idle past 4473 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 20 of 34 (465099)
05-03-2008 1:06 AM


It seems that for the most part ID hasn't been scientically tested, b/c it hasn't provided predictive, falsifiable theories, and any time they've even come close, they've been proven wrong.
ID requires a supernatural designer, and I still don't see a way we can use science to prove or disprove one exists. I think it's the same for any field of science when someone proposes an explanation of "god/the designer/ the flying spaghetti monster did it" for observed phenomena.
So yea, I don't think you'll find the grand unified theory of intelligent design that you seek. If you like, maybe you could construct one yourself, although I would have to suspect that you'd soon realize it didn't have any scientific legs to stand on.

  
steeley42
Junior Member (Idle past 5727 days)
Posts: 8
From: Ohio, USA
Joined: 05-02-2008


Message 21 of 34 (465369)
05-05-2008 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by helenavm
05-03-2008 12:45 AM


Re: What theories?
Hey helenavm,
There are some actual "journals" out there about Creation Science. They are theoretically peer-reviewed and you can usually browse back issues and read all the articles. The two biggies can be found at
No webpage found at provided URL: http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/24/
and
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.answersingenesis.org/arj
Don't expect to find too much about actual Creation Science though. I've read through a lot of the articles, and they are mostly trying to disprove one example or another of evolution/old earth geology/physics.
Good luck in your search.

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Deftil
Member (Idle past 4473 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 22 of 34 (465381)
05-06-2008 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by steeley42
05-05-2008 10:13 PM


Re: What theories?
Hey helenavm,
There are some actual "journals" out there about Creation Science. They are theoretically peer-reviewed and you can usually browse back issues and read all the articles. The two biggies can be found at
http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/24/
and
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arj
Don't expect to find too much about actual Creation Science though. I've read through a lot of the articles, and they are mostly trying to disprove one example or another of evolution/old earth geology/physics.
Good luck in your search.
Hey helenavm,
There are some actual "journals" out there about Creation Science. They are theoretically peer-reviewed and you can usually browse back issues and read all the articles. The two biggies can be found at
No webpage found at provided URL: http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/24/
and
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.answersingenesis.org/arj
Don't expect to find too much about actual Creation Science though. I've read through a lot of the articles, and they are mostly trying to disprove one example or another of evolution/old earth geology/physics.
Good luck in your search.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for those links. I'm going to check those out myself. Been wondering what exactly is meant by Creation Science.

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PurplyBear
Junior Member (Idle past 5814 days)
Posts: 20
From: Indianapolis, Indiana
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 23 of 34 (466311)
05-14-2008 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Deftil
05-06-2008 1:07 AM


Re: What theories?
quote:
Been wondering what exactly is meant by Creation Science.
Creation Science/Intelligent Design are 'synonymous' for: I will do whatever it takes to demonstrate my god is real, not yours.
At least that is what I tell my daughter & her friends. I will see if I can dig up references. I am sure they are somewhere.
Thanks for the post!
Tony

People are not stupid, religion is.

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Michael Giardinello
Junior Member (Idle past 5812 days)
Posts: 1
From: Stony Brook, Ny
Joined: 05-16-2008


Message 24 of 34 (466786)
05-17-2008 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by helenavm
04-30-2008 6:26 PM


The intelligent design does not have a single shred of evidence to support its assumptions. Intelligent design is organized around supernatural causality. Science is the study of the natural world. There is no way to detect the supernatural in the natural world. As long as man calls the natural world his home, he could never detect the supernatural; the man would only be applying his natural understanding of the world to somehow detect the design of an entity that designed the world by supernatural methods. There is no, and never will be, any evidence of a Designer. God cannot be observed, tested, or measured; thus, He is in no objective or empirical. Science does not operate under these conditions; thus, any "evidence" that there's a Designer is completely unfounded. Intelligent design is dependent upon the unknown; advocates will single-out areas of unknown origin and stamp it "Made in Heaven". It is completely illogical -- if we don't know how X came to be, then it must have been designed. This is exactly what advocates of ID do; it's not science at all, just shaky logic. Using Behe as an example, all that he did was wrap his irreducible complexity with wrapping paper of logic tied with a bow of biochemistry; no scientific method, no peer-review, no general consensus in the scientific community -- no science. It all fundamentally boils down, as stated, to the absence of science. There's going to be some diehard ID supporters who will have the usual inept replies, probably an ad hominem argument to divert attention from the real issue -- ID's ineptitude.
evolutionisreal.blogspot.com
Edited by Michael Giardinello, : No reason given.
Edited by Michael Giardinello, : No reason given.

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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4134 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 25 of 34 (467008)
05-19-2008 1:20 AM


Doesn't ID lose the game the second they win the right to enter schools?
Intelligent Design can be summed up in one sentence: Don't know now? Goddidit!
I know our students are dumb, but they aren't too stupid to not be able to see through that.
By winning the right to teach ID, doesn't ID collapse?

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Marcosll
Junior Member (Idle past 5796 days)
Posts: 25
From: Estepona, Spain
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 26 of 34 (467991)
05-26-2008 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by obvious Child
05-19-2008 1:20 AM


ID
obvious Child,
I couldn't agree more with you. Goddidit isn't a valid answer as to how things work. Therefore it should not be offered as an alternative to real science.
That said, science should limit itself to what it has proven. Sometimes science states certain things are imposible and later new research proves the opposite. Science shouldn't close any doors other than the ones which can be proved.

Estepona Apartments - Apartments for sale and rent in Estepona, Spain

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Deftil
Member (Idle past 4473 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 27 of 34 (468096)
05-27-2008 1:12 AM


I have to admit, I've never read anything by Michael Behe.
Has anyone here?

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3256 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 28 of 34 (468098)
05-27-2008 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Marcosll
05-26-2008 6:56 AM


Re: ID
That said, science should limit itself to what it has proven.
Science hasn't proven anything. Science doesn't deal in proof, it deals in tentative conclusions: the best explanation we currently have based on the observed phenomena. Science hasn't proven gravity, but I assume you have no problem teaching that, right? What science classes does is teach the current theories, what has the most current support.
I will agree that science classes in general are very bad at articulating the tentativity of science. I believe that was even discussed in a different thread. It comes down to which is more harmful, telling students in 5th grade that THIS is the way it is, and getting them to understand scientific precepts, or trying to explain to them that this is PROBABLY how it is, but we could be wrong because we can't ever know with 100% certainty...and would the kids even understand that. Once you get to high school, that should be well explained, but unfortunately, every grade seems to assume the best time to bring that up is a different grade and it falls by the way side.

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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4134 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 29 of 34 (468258)
05-28-2008 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Perdition
05-27-2008 1:32 AM


Re: ID
Depends on how you define "prove." Science has in fact shown that genetics are the foundation for many traits and that manipulating these genes can cause different traits. Science has shown that the Earth and other planets revolve around the sun. If you don't believe that science has proven anything, care to explain the various agricultural green revolutions in the past 50 years? How about radioactivity?

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3256 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 30 of 34 (468273)
05-28-2008 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by obvious Child
05-28-2008 5:17 PM


Re: ID
Science has shown that manipulating genes results in different traits being expressed. So, based on that observation, we theorize that DNA, split into genes, is the method by which traits are inherited and passed on. Granted, it fits the observations to an incredibly good degree, and has yielded many predictions which have been verified many times over, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for some new piece of information to be found tomorrow that will make us throw out that whole theory, or at least seriously rework it. Do I think that's likely? No, but it makes our "prrof" less than absolute. Same with radioactivity.
As for the Earth circling the sun...everyone knows that it was accepted as a scientific fact that the sun revolved around the Earth, then we found more evidence, and we began to assume it was the other way around. I guess now, we're to the point where we need to decide if an observation counts as science, or only the explanation for that observation. I would say it is now observed that the Earth goes around the sun, and we have the Theory of Gravity to explain it.
I guess now we're quibbling over split hairs, but does science "prove" that water is wet, or is that just an observation?

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