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Author Topic:   Since it IS Christmas time......
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 121 of 126 (541616)
01-04-2010 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Jazzns
01-04-2010 6:07 PM


Re: Minor Correction
1) Daniel, the prophecy under discussion, is not in the Torah, but rather is in Former Prophets, the second of the three sections of the Tanakh (AKA "The Hebrew Bible"), those sections being Torah, Former Prophets, and Writings.
I am catching up on EvC threads so sorry for the mid-thread reply. Daniel is not in the Prophets in the Hebrew Bible it is in the Writings. Some Christian reorderings put Daniel next to other books that are originally from the Prophets.
Excellent catch!
Also note that the second section of the Hebrew Scriptures is simply the Prophets (Nephibim). The books of the Former Prophets are Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings, also known as the Prose Prophets to reflect the rearrangement in post-Targum translations. The Latter (or Poetic) Prophets are Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and then in one scroll all of the Minor Prophets. This last scroll is sometimes also known as "the Prophets", confusing in English but distinguished in Hebrew with a different article form; but is now commonly referred to as the Twelve.
There is still some debate about this classification, however, as Jonah is also considered one of the Megilloth ("Booklets"), traditional holiday readings, and had that status well before things like Esther. So we do not have good confidence one way or another as to whether Jonah was among those books canonized c. 200 BC or continued to be part of the debatables after the Psalms were accepted and the countdown toward Daniel (the last) took place. The Twelve in their current listing are Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Edited by Iblis, : memory glitch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Jazzns, posted 01-04-2010 6:07 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 122 of 126 (541622)
01-04-2010 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by roger pearse
01-04-2010 2:07 PM


Rule #1
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This message is a reply to:
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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


(1)
Message 123 of 126 (541653)
01-04-2010 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by New Cat's Eye
12-31-2009 10:47 AM


On the 10th day of Mithras
You claimed that there's no conection between Mithras and Dec. 25. You could have easily, after making the claim provided something like:
quote:
It is often stated that Mithras was thought to have been born on December 25. But Beck tells us that this is not so. In fact he calls this assertion 'that hoariest of "facts"'. He continues: "In truth, the only evidence for it is the celebration of the birthday of "Invictus" on that date in Calendar of Philocalus. 'Invictus' is of course Sol Invictus, Aurelian's sun god. It does not follow that a different, earlier, and unofficial sun god, Sol Invictus Mithras, was necessarily or even probably, born on that day too."
source
I found that pretty quickly. Anyone reading through the thread already has a link to go through for that ascertaining they might be inclined to.
You do understand that that's Pearse's own post at Wikipedia right?
That's correct, he's one of the primary editors at the page, and responsible for most of the deletions that slant the topic, even though two of the footnotes are to his own essays. He gets away with it because no one else cares enough to do the tremendous amount of shitwork needed to keep the page from being taken over by Magic drones, and he at least has a scholarly veneer derived from hosting a ton of good sources.
This talk entry summarizes the result of this neglect, however
Accounts survive of their rituals and core beliefs. They had a strong following in the military. This article has been decimated by christians who jump at anything that underminds their concept of their religion being 'original'. From what i remember reading latin texts, it is described as 'coming from the east' with no specific mention of where. I suggest this article has the improperly deleted sections restored and the article be locked. After all, they are just sock puppets, and as we all know, wiki is at war with sock puppets.
Talk:Mithraism - Wikipedia
Note how tightly Beck has been quote-mined in your example, also, to produce the necessary effect. This even though Beck is the main champion of the "Mithras is different" dogma!
Nor are his conclusions in this case anything but ludicrous. The military cult of Mithras, which used the public name of Sol Invictus ("The Unconquerable Sun") is hardly likely to be different in this public aspect from the imperial cult mandated by the career soldier Aurelian in the generation before Constantine. The re-identification of the god of the secret society (which had expanded among the merchant class) with that of the Empire was exactly the sort of thing we could expect from the soldier Constantine when he co-opted the Christian ecclestiacal network.
Neither is the claim that the name and initial founding of the Mithraic rites in the West is somehow unconnected to the Zoroastrian inhabitants of Persia, Parthia and Anatolia the least bit believable. The most reliable witness to the living Mysteries is Lucius Mestius Plutarchus
Life of Pompey writes:
The power of the pirates first commenced in Cilicia, having in truth but a precarious and obscure beginning, but gained life and boldness afterwards in the wars of Mithridates, where they hired themselves out, and took employment in the king's service. Afterwards, whilst the Romans were embroiled in their civil wars, being engaged against one another even before the very gates of Rome, the seas lay waste and unguarded, and by degrees enticed and drew them on not only to seize upon and spoil the merchants and ships upon the seas, but also to lay waste the islands and seaport towns. So that now there embarked with these pirates men of wealth and noble birth and superior abilities, as if it had been a natural occupation to gain distinction in. They had divers arsenals, or piratic harbors, as likewise watch towers and beacons, all along the sea-coast; and fleets were here received that were well manned with the finest mariners, and well served with the expertest pilots, and composed of swift sailing and light-built vessels adapted for their special purpose. Nor was it merely their being thus formidable that excited indignation; they were even more odious for their ostentation than they were feared for their force. Their ships had gilded masts at their stems; the sails woven of purple, and the oars plated with silver, as if their delight were to glory in their iniquity. There was nothing but music and dancing, banqueting and revels, all along the shore. Officers in command were taken prisoners, and cities put under contribution, to the reproach and dishonor of the Roman supremacy. There were of these corsairs above one thousand sail, and they had taken no less than four hundred cities, committing sacrilege upon the temples of the gods, and enriching themselves with the spoils of many never violated before, such as were those of Claros, Didyma, and Samothrace; and the temple of the Earth in Hermione, and that of Aesculapius in Epidaurus, those of Neptune at the Isthmus, at Taenarus, and at Calauria; those of Apollo at Actium and Leucas, and those of Juno, in Samos, at Argos, and at Lacinium. They themselves offered strange sacrifices upon Mount Olympus, and performed certain secret rites or religious mysteries, among which those of Mithras have been preserved to our own time, having received their previous institution from them.
In the 19th century, when public magickal studies were in their infancy again, a lot of pedants made a career out of throwing aspersions on Plutarch. But when the hieroglyphics were finally decrypted, his apparently-imaginative account of Isis and Osiris was shown to be remarkably accurate on point after point. Even items he only referred to obliquely like the beheading of Isis were revealed to be real elements of doctrine.
Since that time, with the further translation of cuneiform and the results of extensive archaeological studies in the ancient Near East, he has never been demonstrated to be misleading us about living customs and beliefs.
Life of Alexander writes:
At the hearing of these words, such was the grief and emotion of Darius's mind, that they carried him into extravagant suspicions; and taking Tireus aside into a more private part of his tent, "Unless thou likewise," said he to him, "hast deserted me, together with the good fortune of Persia, and art become a Macedonian in thy heart; if thou yet ownest me for thy master Darius, tell me, I charge thee, by the veneration thou payest the light of Mithras, and this right hand of thy king, do I not lament the least of Statira's misfortunes in her captivity and death? Have I not suffered something more injurious and deplorable in her lifetime? And had I not been miserable with less dishonor, if I had met with a more severe and inhuman enemy? For how is it possible a young man as he is, should treat the wife of his opponent with so much distinction, were it not from some motive that does me disgrace?" Whilst he was yet speaking, Tireus threw himself at his feet, and besought him neither to wrong Alexander so much, nor his dead wife and sister, as to give utterance to any such thoughts, which deprived him of the greatest consolation left him in his adversity, the belief that he was overcome by a man whose virtues raised him above human nature; that he ought to look upon Alexander with love and admiration, who had given no less proofs of his continence towards the Persian women, than of his valor among the men.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/674/pg674.html
So there's no doubt that the Romans were aware of the eastern deity, and considered him to be the same fellow as the guy at their underground bull-fights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-31-2009 10:47 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2010 10:20 AM Iblis has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 126 (541684)
01-05-2010 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Iblis
01-04-2010 11:23 PM


Re: On the 10th day of Mithras
You do understand that that's Pearse's own post at Wikipedia right?
Holy shit. That's fucking hilarious!
And no, I didn't know that.
What a goon... He didn't come off as being very honest in the first place.
Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Mithras and Dec. 25 nor do I care to get into it.
I don't have a problem with Christianity hijacking other religions' dates and customs, etc.
I was just trying to help out a new member (who turned out to be a jerk). But I think he might be leaving anyways.
Thanks for all the information and for exposing Pearse though.
Bravo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Iblis, posted 01-04-2010 11:23 PM Iblis has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 125 of 126 (542715)
01-12-2010 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Peg
01-01-2010 6:52 AM


Peg responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Moses did not claim to have any supernatural powers. He was just a man. Miracles can only be performed by god.
For Jesus to perform a miracle would mean that Jesus was a god, which is blasphemy. There is only one god.
this is not good reasoning considering you acknowledge that Moses was able to perform miracles due to God giving him the power
Incorrect. You need to read my post before responding.
Moses did not perform any miracles. That's why he was taken aback when god told him what to do in front of Pharaoh. God performed the miracles. He did it through Moses, but it was god all along. God did not give Moses any powers. Moses could not perform any miracles.
You really don't understand the concept of monotheism with respect to Judaism, do you? That is the entire reason that Jesus cannot under any circumstances be the Messiah: The miracles are attributed to him, not god.
That's blasphemy. There is only one god and only god can perform miracles. There is no need for a son for to have a son would mean there is a god other than god and there is only one.
quote:
like the jews, your idea of the messiah is very material and limited.
Like a blasphemer, you wish to change the word of god. It is not for you to say who the Messiah is.
You seem to think that Jews are incapable of understanding Judaism. That only a Christian can tell a Jew what Judaism means. That in trying to determine what Judaism has to say about the Jewish Messiah, we should look to people who aren't Jews because the Jews are too ignorant of their own religion to understand what Jewish theology states.
quote:
He was to be a messiah for the whole world, not just the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
What part of "unites the land" are you having a hard time understanding? Once again, you seem to think that you know better than Jews what Judaism says.
You need to take your arrogance, put it aside, and consider the possibility that other people understand their own religion better than you do.
If you can't have respect for another person's religion, what on earth makes you think you deserve respect for yours?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Peg, posted 01-01-2010 6:52 AM Peg has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 126 of 126 (542716)
01-12-2010 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Peg
01-01-2010 6:45 AM


Peg responds to bluescat48:
quote:
quote:
But how do you know for sure that you are right & they(The Jews) were wrong? That the entire New Testament wasn't a hoax?
Anyone can write a story. And anyone can interpret such to say just about anything.
prophecy
Unfulfilled.
quote:
archeology
Unsubstantiated.
quote:
secular history
Unsupportive.
quote:
Oh, and a little faith
When you have no physical evidence to support your claim, what else is there?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Peg, posted 01-01-2010 6:45 AM Peg has not replied

  
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