|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,767 Year: 4,024/9,624 Month: 895/974 Week: 222/286 Day: 29/109 Hour: 2/3 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DBlevins Member (Idle past 3801 days) Posts: 652 From: Puyallup, WA. Joined:
|
According to wikipedia, there's been a mass shooting and a mass arson since the gun-control measures you refer to went into effect - the Childers Palace Fire and the Monash University shooting. Thank you for the information on the Monash University shooting. If we include that in the statistics as a 'mass-shooting' (which it could very well have become) then that would be one mass-shooting, in the last 16 years. If we compare the previous decade's 11 mass shootings, from the time of the 1996 gun law, to the next decade's 1 mass shooting after the law took effect, then I think we can consider that statistically significant in regards to the effect that the gun law had on mass shootings. It should also be pointed out that the Australian government instituted more regulations in response to the Monash University shooting. Why you included arson in the discussion is confusing, and though I might speculate I would rather you tie it into the discussion than me trying to put words into your mouth.
Homicides increased in Australia after the gun ban went into effect, armed robberies increased by almost 4000 per year, and neither decreased until eight years later, when homicide rates began decreasing in every OECD country, including the ones (like the US) that made no particular efforts at gun control. Do you have links to the data? I am curious where you got your data as my literature research did not show any statistically significant increase in gun crime after the gun law went into effect. It does show a steady decline in the use of firearms in robberies, starting from 1997, the year the gun law went into effect. (Notice figure 1 on page 2.) (I might also add that it was not an outright gun ban as you seem to imply. Rather it was a ban on only some types of firearms.)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DBlevins Member (Idle past 3801 days) Posts: 652 From: Puyallup, WA. Joined: |
...we believe that there's no compelling societal interest in merely shifting the mode of homicide from "firearm" to something else. Do you think that having a knife gives you the same ability to inflict a mass-killing as a firearm?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DBlevins Member (Idle past 3801 days) Posts: 652 From: Puyallup, WA. Joined: |
Percy, fully half of the participants on your side are advocating for a prohibition on the private ownership of firearms. Maybe you'd like to get with them and hammer out some of the confusion you're apparently experiencing. Just to be clear, I am not advocating a prohibition on private ownership, but rather a set of regulations that would look similar to those implemented by the U.K. and Australia. As far as guns making people safe, I would point to this paper. and this paperpaper. If you'd like to see a more comprehensive list. Edited by DBlevins, : No reason given. Edited by DBlevins, : Added additional literature.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
|
For those who don't remember, Gabrielle Giffords was a member of the US House of Representatives who was gravely injured in a mass shooting near Tucson, Arizona, in early 2011. Six people were killed and thirteen injured.
Spurred by the recent slaughter of 20 first-graders in at Sandy Hook Elementary School, Giffords recently spoke out about gun violence in an exclusive interview with Diane Sawyer. This excerpt about the dangers of good guys armed with guns is from the article Giffords, Kelly Say 'Enough' to Gun Violence on 2nd Anniversary of Tucson Shooting:
Giffords, 42, and Kelly, 48, are both gun owners and supporters of the 2nd Amendment, but Kelly had strong words for the National Rifle Association after the group suggested the only way to stop gun violence is to have a "good guy with a gun." There was a good guy with a gun, Kelly said, the day Jared Loughner shot Giffords and 18 other people, six fatally, at her "Congress on Your Corner" event. "[A man came out] of the store next door and nearly shot the man who took down Jared Loughner," Kelly said. "The one who eventually wrestled [Loughner] to the ground was almost killed himself by a good guy with a gun, so I don't really buy that argument." Instead, Giffords and Kelly are proposing "common sense" changes through "Americans for Responsible Solutions." The lesson here? If you have a chance to tackle a shooter, think twice. You may be mistaken for the attacker by a good guy with a gun. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
In that case you and CS part ways on the issue of whether more guns will reduce gun deaths. The position of CS and of the NRA is that more guns will reduce gun deaths because of their deterrent effect. I don't think more guns will necessarily reduce gun deaths, I've just left it open as a possibility.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm sure by now everyone has heard that there was another mass shooting in Aurora, CO, this time 3 people not including the gunman, who they believe was killed by police. For those who haven't heard here's a link to an article chosen at random: Gunman and Three Others Killed After Standoff in Aurora, Colo. But how many of us have heard about the theter shooting in San Antonio?
Two wounded in theater shooting An off-duty police officer was working at the theater and shot the gunman before they could kill anybody.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
|
Hi CS,
There's also the followup article: Breakup sparked theater shootout. The perpetrator's girlfriend broke up with him, he became angry and shot up the restaurant where she worked, then ran shooting into the adjacent movie theater. This is a perfect example of one of the scenarios I described, losing one's temper. Who among us never becomes angry or despondent at points in time in their life? Who among us can guarantee we will never become mentally ill or even deranged at some point in our life? Who among us can guarantee that no one in our household will never suffer these things? Who among us can perfectly secure a gun and its ammunition so it can never be misused? Who among us never fails to follow any gun safety rules? Who among us can guarantee that in the confusion of rapidly developing events that we can accurately tell good guys from bad? I think we're safest when guns are primarily in the hands of trained professionals, which is precisely the situation described in your article. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4042 Joined: Member Rating: 8.0
|
An off-duty police officer Nobody is suggesting that trained police officers should not have guns. Cops get exactly the sort of constant training necessary to respond in a situation like this. Concealed-carry civilians do not. See the video upthread. You've simply brought us a red herring.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
hooah212002 Member (Idle past 827 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
So should we have police everywhere? Should every public venue, no matter the size, be patrolled by the police?
"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither""Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Cops get exactly the sort of constant training necessary to respond in a situation like this. Concealed-carry civilians do not. Civilians do take training cources before they concealed-carry.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
So should we have police everywhere? Should every public venue, no matter the size, be patrolled by the police? Nope.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4042 Joined: Member Rating: 8.0
|
Civilians do take training cources before they concealed-carry. Not even remotely like police training. Again, see the video posted upthread. Cops get continual training, not just a once-and-done session. Their training focuses not only on marksmanship and care of the weapon, but also on responding to a crisis. Concealed-carry training in no way includes crisis training. They quite simply do not equip permit-holders with the skills needed to respond to a sudden, unexpected, immediate threat. Their reaction times are too slow, their physiological responses are untrained - not all training is the same, CS. Mandating a dozen or three hours at the shooting range with a 2-hour mandatory course on the rules and care of firearms has nothing whatsoever to do with actually using your gun in an emergency. In a crisis, a defensive shooter needs to be able to correctly distinguish friends from foes, to ensure that innocents are not in the line of fire in case of a miss, must have extremely rapid reaction time, must have muscle-memory-level training to take cover and draw the weapon, and so on, all in an extremely high-stress, panic-filled scenario. These are high-intensity skills - they require constant reinforcement, you lose them if you don't train for a month or so. That's not the sort of training that concealed-carry permits require. That sort of training isn't even offered. ABE: All you've done is add equivocation to your red herring. Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8551 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
So should we have police everywhere? Should every public venue, no matter the size, be patrolled by the police?
Nope. Isn't this pretty much the action called for by the NRA after Sandy Hook?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4042 Joined: Member Rating: 8.0 |
Isn't this pretty much the action called for by the NRA after Sandy Hook? No - the NRA isn't that smart. They want civilians to be armed. They want quarter-trained civilians with guns in enclosed spaces with a bunch of children in the case of schools and shopping malls. Cops would be a rather large step up from that.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Not even remotely like police training. I don't think it needs to be.
Again, see the video posted upthread. I won't watch videos here at work.
Cops get continual training, not just a once-and-done session. I don't think cops train as much as you think they do. How often are they required to train with firearms?
Concealed-carry training in no way includes crisis training. I don't think it needs to.
They quite simply do not equip permit-holders with the skills needed to respond to a sudden, unexpected, immediate threat. Their reaction times are too slow, their physiological responses are untrained... If the individual is unable to help, then they can just leave their gun holstered.
In a crisis, a defensive shooter needs to be able to correctly distinguish friends from foes, to ensure that innocents are not in the line of fire in case of a miss, must have extremely rapid reaction time, must have muscle-memory-level training to take cover and draw the weapon, and so on, all in an extremely high-stress, panic-filled scenario. These are high-intensity skills - they require constant reinforcement, you lose them if you don't train for a month or so. That's not the sort of training that concealed-carry permits require. If the scenario isn't conducive to using your firearm, you are in no way required to do so.
That sort of training isn't even offered. It took me like 2 seconds to find websites offering that sort of training. After that all you have to do is practice. I'm just not seeing the picture you're painting: where cops are trained elites and civilians are bumbling idiots (that have to use their guns even if its dangerously).
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024