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Author Topic:   Atheism on the Rise
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 16 of 76 (506638)
04-28-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
04-28-2009 6:43 AM


Re: RAmen
Percy writes:
It gets asked here all the time. Go back to sleep.
But Percy, those aren't TRUEtm born again children of god.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 04-28-2009 6:43 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 04-28-2009 6:59 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 17 of 76 (506641)
04-28-2009 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Huntard
04-28-2009 6:56 AM


Re: RAmen
No true born again child of God would ever question another's claim to be a true Christian.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Huntard, posted 04-28-2009 6:56 AM Huntard has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 18 of 76 (506650)
04-28-2009 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
04-28-2009 6:43 AM


Re: RAmen
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
It gets asked here all the time. Go back to sleep.
Percy I have read the question several times since I have been coming to this site.
So I know that it is asked.
My statement was that a person that was a born again child of God would not ask the question because he/she knows the answer to the question.
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
God hardwired His laws into the minds of mankind.
Everybody that goes to church and cliams to be a christian ain't one.
To be a Christian you have to be living a life like Christ did.
I don't claim to be one, just somebody that is working on being one.
I haven't been asleep, just real busy lately with more important things.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 04-28-2009 6:43 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 04-28-2009 3:10 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 74 by bluescat48, posted 05-13-2009 11:45 AM ICANT has not replied

  
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 19 of 76 (506678)
04-28-2009 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by ICANT
04-28-2009 2:00 AM


Re: Chairty
Hi ICANT,
ICANT writes:
We need lots of help trying to feed the hungry that come to the food shelters, also to keep the shelters for battered women open, the shelters for young teenage mothers, as well as the homeless.
My point wasn't that that atheist aren't doing enough, my point was that WE AREN'T TAKING THE CREDIT FOR OUR CHARITABLE ACTS!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ICANT, posted 04-28-2009 2:00 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Son, posted 04-28-2009 11:12 AM SammyJean has not replied
 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 04-28-2009 2:38 PM SammyJean has not replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3829 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 20 of 76 (506686)
04-28-2009 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by SammyJean
04-28-2009 10:39 AM


Re: Chairty
Well, it's harder for atheists to take credit for things because the only thing atheists share is their non-belief in god(s). The athesits that participate in charities don't do it because they are atheists and i bet that for lots of them, atheism is not really that important. Most of them would take credit as a person, not as an atheist(or as a non-beliver in fairies). It seems more logical to make a secular organisation (like those that exists already).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by SammyJean, posted 04-28-2009 10:39 AM SammyJean has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by dwise1, posted 04-28-2009 2:33 PM Son has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 21 of 76 (506708)
04-28-2009 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Son
04-28-2009 11:12 AM


Re: Chairty
"Chairty" Does that have something to do providing something to sit on? {grin}
I don't think the point is about taking credit, but rather wanting to counter mistaken ideas about atheists and overblown self-aggrandizement by Christians as they slander atheists. Not only do they say that atheists are immoral, but they also claim that only believers are charitable, practically saying that their god is the only reason that charity even exists. I know that I've heard that crowing plenty of times.
The thing is that performing charity on any scale above the personal level requires some kind of organization. Let's face it, Christians are a helluva lot more organized than atheists are, what with having had nearly 2000 years to build that organization. Plus having a lot more visibility, especially considering that for most of that time being identified as an atheist would be a virtual death sentence so we had to lay low.
Now that atheists are starting to come out of the closet and increasing their visibility, we can start to build charitable organizations of our own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Son, posted 04-28-2009 11:12 AM Son has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Son, posted 04-28-2009 3:00 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 22 of 76 (506710)
04-28-2009 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by SammyJean
04-28-2009 10:39 AM


Re: Chairty
Hi Sammy,
Sammy Jean writes:
My point wasn't that that atheist aren't doing enough, my point was that WE AREN'T TAKING THE CREDIT FOR OUR CHARITABLE ACTS!
My point was whatever you are doing it is not visible.
If you want people to know you need to hang out a shingle and proclaim to be in the fight.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by SammyJean, posted 04-28-2009 10:39 AM SammyJean has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by bluescat48, posted 04-28-2009 2:52 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 27 by Theodoric, posted 04-28-2009 4:12 PM ICANT has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 23 of 76 (506715)
04-28-2009 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ICANT
04-28-2009 2:38 PM


Re: Chairty
I must be from another dimension. I couldn't care less whether anyone knows that I have given money to charities. As far as I can see, wanting recognition is nothing more that a human ego trip.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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Son
Member (Idle past 3829 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 24 of 76 (506716)
04-28-2009 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by dwise1
04-28-2009 2:33 PM


Re: Chairty
What i meant is that we already have non-religious charities. (Unicef and stuffs like that). It's just that when an atheist will create a charity, he will only reference what they do, not what they don't believe in because it wouldn't make sense to say:"atheist organisation for children", they would just say:"organisation for children". Whereas a religious one will usually reference his beliefs to gain converts.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 25 of 76 (506719)
04-28-2009 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ICANT
04-28-2009 7:57 AM


Re: RAmen
ICANT writes:
God hardwired His laws into the minds of mankind.
To loop this back to the OP, this is exactly why atheism is on the rise--because of nonsense like this.
ICANT and theists like him portray humans as amoral robots. Deep down, we all know this isn't true. We know that by applying empathy and reason we can devise moral codes that work. Theists want to pretend as if morality doesn't exist. Instead, obedience is all one needs. Sorry, but this doesn't work for me. I would hazard a guess that this doesn't work for a lot of people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ICANT, posted 04-28-2009 7:57 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rahvin, posted 04-28-2009 3:49 PM Taq has replied
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 04-28-2009 8:43 PM Taq has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 26 of 76 (506724)
04-28-2009 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taq
04-28-2009 3:10 PM


Re: RAmen
quote:
God hardwired His laws into the minds of mankind.
To loop this back to the OP, this is exactly why atheism is on the rise--because of nonsense like this.
ICANT and theists like him portray humans as amoral robots. Deep down, we all know this isn't true. We know that by applying empathy and reason we can devise moral codes that work. Theists want to pretend as if morality doesn't exist. Instead, obedience is all one needs. Sorry, but this doesn't work for me. I would hazard a guess that this doesn't work for a lot of people.
It seems to me more that ICANT is claiming that "god" planted empathy in all of humanity in the first place, and that this is our "conscience" that identifies morality for us.
The problem to me is not that he's claiming that human beings are "amoral robots," but more that he's denying reality by asserting that there is any such thing as objective morality. He clearly ignores the differences (some minor, some gigantic) in morality from different cultures - for his assertion to be true, one or more of the following needs to be true as well:
1) God gave different people different "hardwired morality." This just so happens to coincide with cultural influences in an individuals geographic location
2) Objective morality exists, but people tend to ignore the "hardwired morality" provided by God and instead fall into sin. Deep down, these people all know that what they're doing is immoral due to the "hardwiring," but they make the choice to be wicked anyway.
3) The "hardwired morality" is only activated when exposed to an outside source - in other words, the "hardwired morality" is dormant until a person is exposed to the Bible in some form or another.
4) "Hardwired morality" exists, but people are deceived by the devil and confused like Eve was.
It seems to me that, given the wild disparity in what is determined to be "moral" amongst different cultures, it is obvious that morality is subjectively determined by communities. Commonalities result because some basic moral tenets are required for a culture to last long - killing other members of the community without cause, for example, tends to cause communities to die out. The precise definition of "murder," however, differs wildly between cultures - in some, killing during wartime is "murder," while in others it is not; in some, human sacrifice is considered "murder," while in others it is not. Even within Christians there is a significant divide regarding such things as classifying abortion as "murder" (many clearly do, but many others do not, and there's a lot of fuzzy middle ground), or classifying homosexuality as "immoral" (including whether the behavior is evil or the person is wicked).
But I agree - this is one of the prime reasons that atheism is on the rise. Religion can be useful for moral instruction, but because morality is subjective and changes as a culture evolves, disparities between ever-changing community standards of "morality" and the written, unchanging standards of religion are inevitable. As we all gain more and more awareness of the world around us and realize that there are other cultures beyond our own, it becomes readily apparent to any rational person that morality is decidedly not objective. Rational people also tend to realize that, while "because I say so" is handy for children and sociopaths, obedience is a crutch and not the ideal in terms of determining what is "right." Religion frowns on independent thought and disobedience..and so rational people are, in ever-increasing numbers, frowning back.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 04-28-2009 3:10 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 04-28-2009 9:13 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 27 of 76 (506728)
04-28-2009 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ICANT
04-28-2009 2:38 PM


Re: Chairty
I don't give a rats ass if my charity is visible. I don't need to impress anyone. I volunteer because I enjoy it and it improves my community. Anyone that feels they need to get recognition has another agenda. I find, yes this is just anecdotal evidence, that very few atheist feel the need for acknowledgment for their good works.
The argument was made earlier that some protestant religions do not believe that good works affects your ability to get into heaven, but this has a weird way of manifesting itself. They believe that faith alone will get them into heaven, but there is the subcontext that doing good works shows their faith.
An example of this is Calvinism. They believe in the elect. Before you are born it is decided if you are one of the elect and going to heaven. You never know if you are one of the elect, but your behavior on earth is determined by whether you are elect or not. It is a circular reasoning.
For example,
I live a good, christian moral life so I may be one of the elect. He does not live a good christian moral life so he can not be.
My point is a lot of christian churches and christians publicize their good works as an exaltation to their mythical being.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 04-28-2009 2:38 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 28 of 76 (506734)
04-28-2009 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rahvin
04-28-2009 3:49 PM


Re: RAmen
It seems to me more that ICANT is claiming that "god" planted empathy in all of humanity in the first place, and that this is our "conscience" that identifies morality for us.
This doesn't seem to be enough of a difference, IMHO.
What I am tangentially referring to is Euthyphro's Dilemma. If we lack the ability for empathy on our own and it is "God given" we have no reason to think that this empathy is actually good. For all we know, God set up Earth purely for entertainment. Perhaps God revels in the humor that we produce through our misaligned empathy. We wouldn't know.
However, if empathy developed through a rational process such as evolution then we have a shot at understanding it, and judging it. We can judge our own morality independently of any deity, imagined or not.
This doesn't mean that understanding morality is easy, but it does mean that it is rational at some level. I think that people sense this as well at a very basic level. It reminds me of the movie "The People vs. Larry Flynt" where the judge ruled that "we know pornography when we see it". I think at a basic level we know morality when we see it. It is difficult to enact or codify, certainly, but it's there.
This differs greatly from the christian tradition, or at least the tradition put forth by the current fundamentalist movement. We all see it in forums like these. We run into people who just can not come to terms with the idea that non-believers (aka atheists) do not feel the need to rape and murder everyone they come across. They don't see the bigger picture or humanity itself. Until the christian movement can lop off the fundie branch their numbers will continue to plummet until only the most myopic isolationists remain.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Theodoric, posted 04-28-2009 6:20 PM Taq has replied
 Message 32 by dwise1, posted 04-28-2009 8:12 PM Taq has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 29 of 76 (506736)
04-28-2009 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by SammyJean
04-27-2009 11:59 AM


Re: RAmen
One thing I would like to see is more atheist participating in charity or more charitable organizations that are openly atheist. I think this would help greatly in changing the way atheist are viewed by the religious.
I just want my back to not be thrown out when I give one of my tents to a local scout troop. I mean, seriously, what kind of karma is that?
Maybe it was being an atheist donating to a semi-religious institution?

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 30 of 76 (506750)
04-28-2009 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taq
04-28-2009 4:47 PM


Re: RAmen
quote:
Until the christian movement can lop off the fundie branch their numbers will continue to plummet until only the most myopic isolationists remain.
Like Republicans?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taq, posted 04-28-2009 4:47 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Taq, posted 04-28-2009 6:30 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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