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Author | Topic: Are we prisoners of sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||
SammyJean Member (Idle past 4074 days) Posts: 87 From: Fremont, CA, USA Joined: |
Peg writes:
Don't most of the different Christian denominations teach only from the bible, just different interpretations? you find one that teaches from the bible and not doctrines of men. "Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:And yet what you've been presenting are doctrines of men. Paul is a man, not God. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
If you have the bible and Pauls own writings about the issue of the Gentiles and the law, why dont you use it?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
bluescat48 writes: And which one would that be? The one that teaches it and practices it.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
SammyJean writes: Don't most of the different Christian denominations teach only from the bible, just different interpretations? yes, they all make that claim. But surely you'd have to ask why there are so many conflicting interpretations of the Bible? Its understandable why most people conclude that the Bible is unclear and contradictory. God’s word is not contradictory. Its the interpretations and explanations that are contradictory.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: And yet what you've been presenting are doctrines of men.Paul is a man, not God. You dont believe that the Apostles were inspired, yet God proved that he was with them by giving them powerful works. Moses was just a man too, but God used him to lead the nation...he used the Apostles to establish christianity. Paul had Gods backing just as Moses did.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I have many Bibles and a book entitled "The Letter Writer, Paul's Background and Torah Perspective" by Tim Hegg; but you don't seem to want to discuss what Paul wrote in relation to what was written in the OT. quote:You know better than that. I feel that all writing is inspired. I have no doubt that Paul was inspired by the state of the world around him, but he wasn't speaking for God. Moses supposedly spoke to God, you know burning bush, on the mountain, in the tent. Paul did not claim to pass on information from God as Moses or the prophets did. Paul's writings do not show that he had God's "backing" just like Moses. If Paul had God's backing, then God changed his mind on how he wanted things done and according to Cedre, God never changes. Christianity today developed through the Gentiles from Paul's writings. You've been shown the contradictions between Paul and the OT. Address them. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: If Paul had God's backing, then God changed his mind on how he wanted things done and according to Cedre, God never changes. Christianity today developed through the Gentiles from Paul's writings. You've been shown the contradictions between Paul and the OT. Address them. How had God changed his mind? Christianity did not develop thru gentiles. The Apostles of Jesus and Jesus himself were Jews. So christianity was developed thru Jews because they did the inviting. Gentiles did not invite jews to christianity. Perhaps you can repeat the 'contradictions' .
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:How rude! You want me to go to the work of repeating myself which I've already done several times with you and cedre. It is more responsible and considerate if you go back and read what I've written. Message 21, Message 28, Message 40, Message 89, Message 93, Message 98, Message 106, Message 107, Message 113, Message 127, Message 128, Message 148, Message 159, Message 165, Message 171, Message 178, Message 181, Message 186, Message 196, Message 204, Message 209, Message 214, Message 231, Message 246, Message 255, Message 288, Message 311, Message 313 Edited by purpledawn, : Added comma "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3238 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
The Apostles of Jesus and Jesus himself were Jews. Yes, and they were speaking to a Jewish audience, not the Gentiles. It was Paul who started going to the Gentiles and trying to convert them to his brand of Christianity. The Apostles, especially Peter and James were against Paul and his teachings, leading to the showdown between them in Jerusalem shown in Galations 2 and Acts 15. Paul essentially bribed them with the money he had collected from the Gentiles, and they gave in to his demands to not make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law in regards to circumcision, while the Apostles thought they should.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Perdition writes: The Apostles, especially Peter and James were against Paul and his teachings, leading to the showdown between them in Jerusalem shown in Galations 2 and Acts 15. They were not against pauls teachings. It was the other Apostles, James, Cephus and John who had sent Paul to preach to the Gentiles. So they certainly were not against it. And if you read Acts 15:1 " And certain men came down from Jude′a and began to teach the brothers: "Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved." 2But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar′nabas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar′nabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute" these men were debating the point with Paul and Barnabas, the men debating were not the Apostles.
Perdition writes: Paul essentially bribed them with the money he had collected from the Gentiles, and they gave in to his demands to not make the Gentile converts follow the Jewish law in regards to circumcision, while the Apostles thought they should. goodness me, where where does that information come from??? This is just not the case at all. Acts 15 shows us the outcome of the issue about the mosaic law...as those men/brothers were teaching that the Gentiles had to practice the Law of Moses and be circumcised. After their dispute about it, they recieved a letter from the Apostles in Jerusalem...
quote: Paul also showed in Gal 2 that if they (jews) still needed the Mosiac Law, then the death of the Christ was in vain.
quote: and as you know, Paul was not a Gentile, he was a Jew... a Jew who no longer believed the Mosaic law was the way to salvation. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
thanks purpledawn for the msg numbers.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3238 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
Hi Peg,
In college, I took a philosophy of religion class. We looked at a number of different religions, but focused on Christianity and Buddhism. We read a number of books and looked at passages from the Bible, and it became quite clear to us there was a feud between Paul and Peter/James. Reading between the lines, and recognizing that whatever else these men may have been, they were human, we were able to piece together a pretty convincing case for what I wrote above. Unfortunately, I'll need to dig through my old college stuff to see if I can come up with what we wrote.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So the question is, was the Mosaic Law ever the way to salvation per God in the OT anymore than our own legal system today? You would have to define salvation from what, but I imagine your decription of salvation is just as wishy washy as your list of Christian Laws. Even though Paul was a Jew he preached his gospel to the Gentiles. The Gentiles never were under the Mosaic Law so why does it matter whether Paul no longer believed the Mosaic Law was the way to salvation? My guess is he took more issue with the additions, which we don't have in the Bible. Not being able to eat at the same table as someone who is eating meat that was presented to idols, etc. Things that made it difficult for the Jews to "mingle." As I've pointed out before, according to Jewish history within Judaism people wanted to reform the religion so that they could "mingle". Not be so different. Paul was a reformer. Was Jesus? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Perdition writes: We read a number of books and looked at passages from the Bible, and it became quite clear to us there was a feud between Paul and Peter/James. Reading between the lines, and recognizing that whatever else these men may have been, they were human, we were able to piece together a pretty convincing case for what I wrote above. Im not denying that there was a dispute, it just wasnt over Pauls teachings... it was over Peter being afraid to associate with the Gentile christians whilst in the company of the Jewish christians. (keep in mind that the culture of the Jews was one that did not even allow walking on the same side of the road as a gentile, so its not unlikely that the new Jewish converts had trouble getting over that deeply ingrained culture) So Paul told Peter to stop putting on such a 'pretense' and explained that righteousness was thru Christ and not works of the Mosaic Law, as it was previously.
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