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Author Topic:   What was God’s plan behind Creation and why does he need one?
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 106 of 174 (544158)
01-24-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Minority Report
01-24-2010 8:03 AM


Situational Morality
Hi, MR.
Minority Report writes:
However I want to draw a distinction between God's vengence & ours, which might just save me...
...In context, the jealousy of God is related to the jealousy of a husband...
I don't disagree with or take exception to anything you've said in this portion. Your conclusions would also be mine, based on my reading and understanding of the scriptures, along with the consensus explanation I've heard from teachers and peers in church.
My only point of concern with it is that, under this system of interpretation, "good" and "bad" are determined situationally, and not absolutely. Specifically, in the examples you gave, "good" and "bad" are determined based on social considerations. This makes the contract, or the society, between parties the ultimate determiner of "good" and "bad."
Basically, this sounds uncomfortably similar to the non-religious notion that "good" and "bad" are subjective terms defined by society.
-----
Minority Report writes:
As I've admitted to Larni, [why God created us] is beyond our ability to know. But my guess is love, though I'm seeing many weaknesses in this argument. The other alternative 'God's glory', has more biblical support, though I'd have no hope in explaining this without making God out to be a egotist.
I know the feeling: that’s the most popular view in my church.
It makes sense, though. In the scientific world (and in the professional world, in general), one’s work must be noticed in order to be successful. I work for an advisor, on whom I rely for training and for introducing my into the scientific community; but, he also relies on me to do good research under his tutelage, to meet his publication quotas and improve the success and notoriety of his lab and research program.
In all honesty, I see no problem with this sort of mutualistic relationship: but, we Christians are uncomfortable with attaching such human limitations and social systems to God. However, all indications from the Bible, in my mind, align very strongly with this viewpoint: to God, we are proverbially a means of improving his lab’s productivity, while He is a means of bringing us eternal happiness.
It leaves a bit of an uncomfortable feeling, though, doesn’t it?
-----
Minority Report writes:
I agree, with emotions like boredom, curiousity & loneliness. But I think love is a fair bit different.
I think this comes from a lifetime of indoctrination and glorification of love. In reality, love is as much a dependency as boredom, curiosity and loneliness: it’s just one that we happen to like (curiosity, I think, goes along with love in this way).
We don’t like to attach anything we perceive to be bad to something we perceive to be as good and as pure as love. We hold love to be sacrosanct, and, like everything else we deem good, we cannot bring ourselves to say anything bad about it. Basically, we love love. Even reclusive, agoraphobic people like Bluejay cannot get along with it, even for a week during a scientific conference that my wife can’t attend with me.
Now, I very strongly love my wife, and, although she does things that I generally think of as bad, annoying or irritating, I don’t see these as bad qualities in her, and they don’t change my love for her. So love essentially has caused me to change myself situationally. Without that, it wouldn’t be love. Not as I understand the term, anyway.
Thus, I don’t understand how this emotional construct, more than any other, could apply to God: it is a dependency, and involves a personal change, both of which are incompatible with the traditional view of God. So, if God loves, and if He creates because of love, then love must refer to something I have never felt (a possibility that I am not ready to reject yet, but an uncomfortable one anyway).
Either that, or God is not the superlative being we have made Him out to be, but is much more human than we realize.
-----
This has been an interesting discussion. Thanks, MR.
Edited by Bluejay, : No reason given.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Minority Report, posted 01-24-2010 8:03 AM Minority Report has not replied

  
Calypso
Junior Member (Idle past 5156 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-05-2006


Message 107 of 174 (544957)
01-29-2010 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
01-08-2010 8:48 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
hooah212002 writes:
I personally find this a rather interseting take on the subject. Especially given the percentage of planet earth that is completely inhospitable to humans either due to weather or animals that will destroy us. If this planet was made just for us, why are there so many areas where we cannot survive?
I don't believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent being that can create perfection in the blink of an eye. I think the human race is a work in progress by said deity, if there is one.
Now the question you pose about being in an inhospitable environment is an interesting one, as I believe that in order to make progress toward a better human race, that human race must be tested under adverse conditions. Much like a car that is crash tested. Yes we are in a sense live, intelligent crash test dummies. Or to put it more accurately, we are the vehicle the crash test dummies are our internal organs, so to speak.
To use another analogy of a device created by humans besides the motor vehicle, take computers for instance. In order to make a more robust computer, it must be subject to attack and tested under adverse conditions. you will only find weakness under adverse conditions. If the conditions or the environment is perfect, the weaknesses remain hidden and no progress is made.
It is a long and arduous process, with floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, murderers, rapists, fire, lions and tigers and bears oh my! (the list is so long I will not bore you with all that can harm you) But you are being tested, your weaknesses are being found, the DNA changing to improve your chances.
Whether this is a natural occurrence or by God's design I do not know. There is yet no evidence of a deity but perhaps said deity prefers it that way. Or perhaps there is no deity and we are all just some sort of cosmic random natural event. I prefer to believe in the deity, but I do not claim to be certain of this deity's existence. Just that it simply makes more sense for there to be one.
Think about it, have you ever seen anything so complex randomly spawn without a creator? Have you ever seen a microprocessor assemble itself by chance after throwing a bunch of parts together? Of course not! Someone had to assemble it. Now consider how much more complex life and human minds are to that of a microprocessor and you will see how unlikely it is that humans are just some random event without a creator. Now I'm not saying it's impossible! Just improbable. Thanks for reading. God bless you and may God bless the United States of America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 01-08-2010 8:48 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-30-2010 9:39 AM Calypso has replied
 Message 110 by hooah212002, posted 01-30-2010 9:36 PM Calypso has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 108 of 174 (544991)
01-30-2010 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Calypso
01-29-2010 10:58 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Hi Calypso
Now the question you pose about being in an inhospitable environment is an interesting one, as I believe that in order to make progress toward a better human race, that human race must be tested under adverse conditions. Much like a car that is crash tested. Yes we are in a sense live, intelligent crash test dummies. Or to put it more accurately, we are the vehicle the crash test dummies are our internal organs, so to speak.
OK, so what are we being tested for? What is the purpose beyond all the testing? What kind of "real world" lies in wait?
It is a long and arduous process, with floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, murderers, rapists, fire, lions and tigers and bears oh my! (the list is so long I will not bore you with all that can harm you) But you are being tested, your weaknesses are being found, the DNA changing to improve your chances.
So the purpose of the tests is that we'll be perfectly developed to improve our chances of what? Living in a world exactly like this one? What will be the purpose of living in that world? Will it be to test and improve us so we are perfectly developed to live in another world exactly the same again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Calypso, posted 01-29-2010 10:58 PM Calypso has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Calypso, posted 01-30-2010 8:18 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
Calypso
Junior Member (Idle past 5156 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-05-2006


Message 109 of 174 (545016)
01-30-2010 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-30-2010 9:39 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Jumped Up Chimpanzee writes:
So the purpose of the tests is that we'll be perfectly developed to improve our chances of what? Living in a world exactly like this one? What will be the purpose of living in that world? Will it be to test and improve us so we are perfectly developed to live in another world exactly the same again?
That would be akin to saying babies live in the womb for 9 months to be better equipped to live out the rest of their lives in other wombs exactly like that one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-30-2010 9:39 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 02-01-2010 6:55 AM Calypso has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 110 of 174 (545019)
01-30-2010 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Calypso
01-29-2010 10:58 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
I'm pretty sure the bible disagrees with you on just about every point you brought up.
Now the question you pose about being in an inhospitable environment is an interesting one, as I believe that in order to make progress toward a better human race, that human race must be tested under adverse conditions. Much like a car that is crash tested. Yes we are in a sense live, intelligent crash test dummies. Or to put it more accurately, we are the vehicle the crash test dummies are our internal organs, so to speak.
To use another analogy of a device created by humans besides the motor vehicle, take computers for instance. In order to make a more robust computer, it must be subject to attack and tested under adverse conditions. you will only find weakness under adverse conditions. If the conditions or the environment is perfect, the weaknesses remain hidden and no progress is made.
It is a long and arduous process, with floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, murderers, rapists, fire, lions and tigers and bears oh my! (the list is so long I will not bore you with all that can harm you) But you are being tested, your weaknesses are being found, the DNA changing to improve your chances.
Sounds alot like you are a Theistic Evolutionist. Fair enough. But this thread, I beleive, is about YHWH: the Abrahamic god of the bible. There is no room for evIloution in that book.
Think about it, have you ever seen anything so complex randomly spawn without a creator? Have you ever seen a microprocessor assemble itself by chance after throwing a bunch of parts together? Of course not! Someone had to assemble it. Now consider how much more complex life and human minds are to that of a microprocessor and you will see how unlikely it is that humans are just some random event without a creator. Now I'm not saying it's impossible! Just improbable. Thanks for reading. God bless you and may God bless the United States of America.
You can't equate the assemblage of a machine with a purpose to human life. nature does a fine job creating human life using nothing but parts from mother's embryo's and fathers sperm: no gawd involved.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Calypso, posted 01-29-2010 10:58 PM Calypso has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Calypso, posted 01-31-2010 12:15 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Calypso
Junior Member (Idle past 5156 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-05-2006


Message 111 of 174 (545024)
01-31-2010 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by hooah212002
01-30-2010 9:36 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
hooah212002 writes:
You can't equate the assemblage of a machine with a purpose to human life. nature does a fine job creating human life using nothing but parts from mother's embryo's and fathers sperm: no gawd involved.
How do you explain the first humans on earth? They didn't have a mother's embryo or a father's sperm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by hooah212002, posted 01-30-2010 9:36 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by hooah212002, posted 01-31-2010 12:39 AM Calypso has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 112 of 174 (545026)
01-31-2010 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Calypso
01-31-2010 12:15 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Maybe not in your fantasy land, but in reality they did....
or are you talking about the first living cells?
Let me clarify my post you are responding to, or actually correct myself. I said "mothers embryo", but I meant mothers egg. Surprised you didn't catch it.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Calypso, posted 01-31-2010 12:15 AM Calypso has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Calypso, posted 01-31-2010 9:57 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Calypso
Junior Member (Idle past 5156 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-05-2006


Message 113 of 174 (545044)
01-31-2010 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by hooah212002
01-31-2010 12:39 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
I caught it, but I didn't think it mattered enough to correct it. Whether you believe the first human arrived as an embryo or an egg and sperm separately that then joined together matters not. The original question was where did they come from? The first human had no mother nor father or else it wouldn't be the first. Do you understand the question yet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by hooah212002, posted 01-31-2010 12:39 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Coragyps, posted 01-31-2010 11:42 AM Calypso has not replied
 Message 115 by hooah212002, posted 01-31-2010 1:06 PM Calypso has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 114 of 174 (545049)
01-31-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Calypso
01-31-2010 9:57 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Do you understand the question yet?
You rather obviously don't understand your own question, Calypso. To repeat a related question for the 877th time on this forum alone: Where did the first person to speak French come from? And along with that one, to whom did they speak it? How could they have been understood?
Think about this for about three minutes, and then give me an answer, Calypso. That answer is also the answer to your question.
Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Calypso, posted 01-31-2010 9:57 AM Calypso has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 115 of 174 (545055)
01-31-2010 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Calypso
01-31-2010 9:57 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Surely you don't think evolution produces such things as crock-o-ducks, do you? If we were to watch a movie-timeline of the evolution of mankind, you wouldn't be able to notice the transition because it was gradual, not abrupt. There wasn't "all of a sudden" !POOF! there's a human, that would be a slap in the face to evIlution. Each individual step looked more and more like modern humans.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Calypso, posted 01-31-2010 9:57 AM Calypso has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by 3DSOC, posted 01-31-2010 2:41 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5165 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 116 of 174 (545062)
01-31-2010 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
01-08-2010 11:28 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Larni writes:
I like the sounds of that.
Why then does he condemn millions to brutal, short lives knowing nothing more than misery?
God isn't doing this, we are.
Sense we all have free will to do as we please, some of my choices may indirectly and/or directly affect you. So if I choose to blow-up a plane to make some political statement, the very same plane you and your family are flying on, it isn't God condemning you, it is I. Likewise, if I decide to become a heroine addict and use all my financial resources to feed my addiction instead of feeding my family, it isn't God who is condemning my children, it is I.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Larni, posted 01-08-2010 11:28 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Larni, posted 01-31-2010 3:26 PM 3DSOC has replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5165 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 117 of 174 (545064)
01-31-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by hooah212002
01-31-2010 1:06 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
hooah212002 writes:
Surely you don't think evolution produces such things as crock-o-ducks, do you? If we were to watch a movie-timeline of the evolution of mankind, you wouldn't be able to notice the transition because it was gradual, not abrupt. There wasn't "all of a sudden" !POOF! there's a human, that would be a slap in the face to evIlution. Each individual step looked more and more like modern humans.
Using this as a foundation then, explain how senses like smell, taste, sight, touch, hearing and speech evolved. Please include how concepts like smell, taste, sight were introduced. How does an evolving sightless creature even know what sight is? Why would this creature use biological resources over hundreds (thousands? millions?) of generations to develop organs to capture light when it doesn't even know/understand what light is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by hooah212002, posted 01-31-2010 1:06 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by DrJones*, posted 01-31-2010 2:47 PM 3DSOC has replied
 Message 125 by hooah212002, posted 01-31-2010 8:11 PM 3DSOC has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 118 of 174 (545066)
01-31-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by 3DSOC
01-31-2010 2:41 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
How does an evolving sightless creature even know what sight is? Why would this creature use biological resources over hundreds (thousands? millions?) of generations to develop organs to capture light when it doesn't even know/understand what light is?
Evolution isn't a concious decision by an organism. It's a matter of random mutation and natural selection.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by 3DSOC, posted 01-31-2010 2:41 PM 3DSOC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by 3DSOC, posted 01-31-2010 3:07 PM DrJones* has replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5165 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 119 of 174 (545067)
01-31-2010 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-06-2010 6:14 AM


Hi!
Jumped Up Chimpanzee writes:
To consider how strange this is, imagine if we humans created a completely new species and demanded of this new species that it should follow certain rules. Yet, at the same time, we gave it free-will and an inquisitive mind of it’s own and consequently it refused to follow our rules or failed to understand them. Would it not be highly peculiar if our reaction were to blame the species that we were entirely responsible for creating, rather than blame our own motives and designs?
We do this very thing all the time - we have children! From a parenting POV, I try to raise my children with certain rules, but it is their choice to obey them or not and face the consequences of their decisions. More importantly though, it isn't the rules, but the meaning behind the rules that I stress to my kids. Try looking at the 10 Commandments again, and ask what is the purpose behind "Thou shalt not kill"? Why would killing be bad? We have a 'No hurting rule' here and one reason I stress to my kids is that chances are, if you're striking out at your sibling, you're acting out of anger and anger can easily escalate out of control. I tell them that them need to control their anger and come to me and we will deal with the problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-06-2010 6:14 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 02-01-2010 6:50 AM 3DSOC has replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5165 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 120 of 174 (545068)
01-31-2010 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by DrJones*
01-31-2010 2:47 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
DrJones writes:
Evolution isn't a concious decision by an organism. It's a matter of random mutation and natural selection.
Species A and B mutate randomly and "natural selection" (curious term that implies something is making a decision) occurs.
Species A's mutations allow it to become stronger/faster/bigger/healther (pick one)
Species B's mutations start to develop optic nerves, corneas, lens, etc.
Wouldn't "natural selection" then always favor Species A? It can out muscle B for food, or it can get to the food faster, or it can survive more variables as to climate.
Again, we're accepting that it would take Species B millions of years to evolve/develop these specialized organs. During those same millions of years, it is competing against Species A for food/shelter/territory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by DrJones*, posted 01-31-2010 2:47 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by DrJones*, posted 01-31-2010 5:02 PM 3DSOC has replied
 Message 124 by Apothecus, posted 01-31-2010 5:35 PM 3DSOC has replied
 Message 150 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2010 1:47 AM 3DSOC has not replied

  
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