Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired?

of course evidence was part of the process. The prophets were sent to give warning messages and instructions on what the people needed to do to rectify their situation with God.Before the destruction of Jerusalem in 607BCE, God spoke to the last Davidic king on the throne of Jerusalem, Zedekiah, and referred to the 'time of the error of the end.' Jerusalem's 'time of the end' was then forty years long, beginning when God sent Jeremiah the prophet to warn them of Gods judgements against them.How did they respond to Jeremiah? The rulers and people conspired to put Jeremiah to death because of the message he delivered them. A priest named Pashhur, publicly struck him and had him put in the stocks and his close associates were killed by the rulers and priests. Read Jeremiahs writings.Do you think that the books Jeremiah wrote were accepted as authentic at that time? No of course they weren't. Jeremiah was not considered a truly inspired prophet until after the prophecies he wrote down had come true. When Jerusalem was invaded and destroyed by the Babylonians in 607bce, then the people knew that Jeremiah was true prophet and his writings were inspired.thats how it is decided if a book should go into the canon.

This isn't evidence. It is just assertions with no references or sources.

---

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

i can only give you biblical references and i know you dont want them so im not going to list thembut i will just say that the contemporaries of Moses confirmed that Moses was the writer of the law and that is all that I need to know that Moses was the author. If just one or two people mentioned moses as the writer, then maybe you'd have a point...but when all the jews and all the hebrew writers make the same claim, it must have been a very well established and provable fact.

We have been warned this is off topic already.I would love to talk about this and see you biblical evidence for the traditional authorships of the bible.Does anyone know if the there is a topic already on authorship of the bible? I looked and did not see one. If not I will try to get around to starting one.

---

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Aptly put. Whether the Hebrew Canon, The Septuagent, The Catholic OT & NT, The Protestant OT & NT, Men have made the decisions as to what is inspired and what has not.

---

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

The fact that the Law is called the Law of Moses has no bearing on who wrote the Pentateuch. It is called the Law of Moses because Moses was the leader of Israel when the Law was given. The book of the Law of Moses simply means that the book covers the Law, not who wrote it.

---

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

My comment in Message 23 deals with the evidence the compilers of the Jewish Canon used to accept or reject books from their canon. Evidence of inspiration doesn't seem to be on the list of criteria I also provided in Message 23.

quote:

---

Jeremiah was not considered a truly inspired prophet until after the prophecies he wrote down had come true.

---

Your position that the prophetic books were only considered inspired or part of the canon because the prophecies had come true presents a problem for Christians since you said in Message 19 that Josesphus showed that the books that were accepted as inspired and holy were those written prior to 200 bce.That means that all prophecies were fulfilled by 200BCE. If they weren't fulfilled, then the writings would not have been accepted into the Jewish Canon according to you. So none of the prophecies in the Jewish Canon could have referred to Jesus.Any NT writers referring to the return of Jesus should not be included since those prophecies supposedly haven't been fulfilled and Luther was correct in removing Revelation, since Christians don't feel it has been fulfilled.You avoided addressing several things in Message 23.But the Catholics are the ones who deemed the NT writings as inspired. If they got the deuterocanon wrong, why assume they got the NT right? God only inspired them half way?
It took over 1000 years for God to inspire someone to correct the error?
Should be consider Joseph Smith to have been inspired over 300 years later to change Christianity again?You've shown no consistent standard of acceptance other than whatever one wants to accept. Again, man decides what has authority and what doesn't.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

In your message 23, you said something that could be misleading. You said that the sect expelled by the Jews after AD 70 became the Catholics. There were various branches of the sect. The two most powerful became the Catholics and the Greek Orthodox. There were other ancient branches, usually other Orthodox branches. In AD 300, Politicians shanghaied the Sect that developed into the Catholic Church. In all these different branches, we have a general consensus about which books are inspired. One criterion was that it had to be written before AD 100 and by a generally recognized name, either an Apostle like Matthew, Peter, or John, someone writing at the dictation of an Apostle like Mark or possibly Luke, or an important Name like James the brother of Jesus or Paul. The other criterion was more practical. It had to be what worked.

quote:

---

In all these different branches, we have a general consensus about which books are inspired. One criterion was that it had to be written before AD 100 and by a generally recognized name, either an Apostle like Matthew, Peter, or John, someone writing at the dictation of an Apostle like Mark or possibly Luke, or an important Name like James the brother of Jesus or Paul. The other criterion was more practical. It had to be what worked.

---

Which means that evidence of inspiration wasn't part of the process. Who wrote the piece was important as well as what was written.If who wrote the book or letter was important for inclusion, then finding out that the author is unknown should exclude the book or letter.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

the traditional Jewish canon was accepted by Jesus and the early Christian congregation. It was only from those writings that the Jesus and the christians quoted thus confirming they accepted that cannon as inspired writings. No. The writers wrote many prophecies. For instance Moses wrote about the messiah as the seed who would crush the serpents head. That prophecy has still not been fulfilled, yet the Pentateuch has been considered an inspired book for centuries.So not all of the prophecies had to be fulfilled for the book to be considered inspired. In the case of Moses, the people had supernatural phenomenon which showed them Moses was being inspired. while thats true, at that time the prophecies regarding Jesus return had not come true, but it didnt matter because the christians had just seen Jesus raised from the dead. They saw many miracles which they themselves were performing as an evidence of Gods guarantee. This is why the congregations accepted the writings of the NT apostles and other writers...they had evidence of Gods backing. It wasnt just the words of men with no proof. firstly, the catholics did not need to create a new hebrew canon. The one used by the Jews and Jesus and the christians was well established and well used. If there was anything wrong with the Jewish hebrew canon, then they would not have used it.the roman catholic church claims responsibility for cataloging the NT at their council late in 397ce, but thats not really true because there are a number of catalogs of the NT that date prior to that date and they agree exactly with our present canon, and some others omit only Revelation.
The four Gospels, Acts, and 12 of the apostle Pauls letters were universally accepted before the end of the 2nd century. The Muratorian Fragment is one of these early catalogs. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

quote:

---

the traditional Jewish canon was accepted by Jesus and the early Christian congregation. It was only from those writings that the Jesus and the christians quoted thus confirming they accepted that cannon as inspired writings.

---

No it only shows they quoted from the religious writings of the time, not that they accepted them as inspired writings.

quote:

---

No. The writers wrote many prophecies. For instance Moses wrote about the messiah as the seed who would crush the serpents head. That prophecy has still not been fulfilled, yet the Pentateuch has been considered an inspired book for centuries.

---

Please provide information from outside of your own mind that the Pentateuch had been considered an inspired book for centuries. What time frame are you talking about?Concerning Moses, I assume you're talking about the A&E story. Please provide reference if not.That story wasn't written by Moses; and it wasn't a prophecy, Messianic or otherwise so it is irrelevant to your comments concerning prophecies.

quote:

---

So not all of the prophecies had to be fulfilled for the book to be considered inspired. In the case of Moses, the people had supernatural phenomenon which showed them Moses was being inspired.

---

You're backpedaling. In Message 19 you stated:

quote:

---

while thats true, at that time the prophecies regarding Jesus return had not come true, but it didnt matter because the christians had just seen Jesus raised from the dead. They saw many miracles which they themselves were performing as an evidence of Gods guarantee. This is why the congregations accepted the writings of the NT apostles and other writers...they had evidence of Gods backing. It wasnt just the words of men with no proof.

---

Again, you making up your own story. Please provide support for your theories.
The earliest Gospel writer had not just seen Jesus return from the dead. Paul didn't even see Jesus rise from the dead. Whoever supposedly saw the miracles probably didn't survive the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. The men who compiled the Catholic Canon were far removed from the original event.

quote:

---

firstly, the catholics did not need to create a new hebrew canon. The one used by the Jews and Jesus and the christians was well established and well used. If there was anything wrong with the Jewish hebrew canon, then they would not have used it.

​

the roman catholic church claims responsibility for cataloging the NT at their council late in 397ce, but thats not really true because there are a number of catalogs of the NT that date prior to that date and they agree exactly with our present canon, and some others omit only Revelation.
The four Gospels, Acts, and 12 of the apostle Pauls letters were universally accepted before the end of the 2nd century. The Muratorian Fragment is one of these early catalogs.

---

Please provide support. I've been courteous enough to provide links and verses so you don't have to find them yourself. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Josephus clearly identified the writings of Moses as part of the canon in the 1st century, but before that time the 70 hebrew scholars from Alexandria who translated the Septuagint in the 2nd century BCE included Moses writings thus showing that in their time, the hebrew canon included the writings of Moses too.Moses wrote in Genesis 3:15 "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel".this is the bibles very first prophecy and its concerning the one who will come and destroy the serpant. The only one who can do that is the Messiah, so this is a messianic prophecy.
The book of Revelation identifies the original serpent as Satan the Devil, and we know that it is Satan who Jesus will fight and destroy.So prophecies are sprinkled throughout the writings. Not everything is prophecy.i will reply to the rest shortly.

quote:

---

Josephus clearly identified the writings of Moses as part of the canon in the 1st century, but before that time the 70 hebrew scholars from Alexandria who translated the Septuagint in the 2nd century BCE included Moses writings thus showing that in their time, the hebrew canon included the writings of Moses too.

---

What is the time frame? From when to when was the Pentateuch considered an inspired book? Again, please provide references that support your position. I have not disagreed that the Torah was part of the Jewish Canon.Keep on track please. You brought up fulfilled prophecies as a prerequisite for canonization. That is what you need to provide support for since according to Christians all prophecies had not been fulfilled by 200BCE. Stick to the writings deemed prophetic, not Moses.

quote:

---

Moses wrote in Genesis 3:15 " And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel".

​

this is the bibles very first prophecy and its concerning the one who will come and destroy the serpant. The only one who can do that is the Messiah, so this is a messianic prophecy.
The book of Revelation identifies the original serpent as Satan the Devil, and we know that it is Satan who Jesus will fight and destroy.

---

No that is not a prophecy and no the snake is not Satan. The vision in Revelation does not support that position and before you get into that discussion, I suggest you read the thread "The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations".The writer of Genesis 3 is the J writer and probably written before 722BCE.The author of Genesis referred to the city of Dan before it was the city of Dan. The writer of Judges doesn't support the idea that Moses was the author of Genesis. According to Judges 1, the Judges manuscript would have been written after the death of Joshua. This puts the writing after the death of Moses. This also demonstrates that Genesis was written after Laish became Dan, which is after the death of Moses. Moses is not the author.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The pentateuch was accepted as an inspired word right from the time it was given to the nation after they left egypt. It was the foundation of the jewish religion. It provided the means of worship, set out the requirements, stipulated how the sacrifices were to be given and why ...Judaism itself rests on the books of the pentateuchall other bible writers witness to the fact that the Pentateuch was Gods law given through the hand of Moses and all the requirments of Judaism was found in it. (Joshua 1:7 Judges 3:4 2Kings 18:6 Malachi 4:4)
Such men as David (1Ki 2:1-3), Daniel (9:11), Ezra (6:18), Nehemiah (8:1), Jesus (Mark 12:26 Luke 16:29 John 7:19), Luke 24:27), and John (1:17) make references to this work as that of Moses and handed to him by God himself. Jesus himself acknowledged that Moses was the writer (Mark 10:3-5 John 5:46-47)It was always accepted by the Jews as the inspired word of God. Genesis lists the events from the creation of man to the death of Jacob in Egypt in 1657BCEExodus records the events to do with their deliverance and the inauguration of the Law Convenent and of the construction of the Tabernacle from 1657 to 1512BCELeviticus give information about the Levitical priesthood and the requirements of worshipNumbers records the 40year wilderness trek down to 1473BCEand Deuteronomy provides Moses final instructions to the new generation of Isrealites where were about to cross over into the promised land.The jews never questioned these books because they were with moses when he was writing them. every book of the bible contains prophecy, not just some...they all do. this does not demonstrate that Moses was not the author of Genesis.What it does is show that the scribes who were making copies of the Pentacheut were keeping it up to date. Its similar today. As words in our language change, so do they change those words in newer translations.... im sure you've read a king james version of the bible for instance, The old english they used back then is not longer used by us so they make new versions in the language we understand.Another example is that of the word 'Shambles'
In the king james version this word is in a NT verse about the local Meat Market where Paul was preaching. Shambles is an old english word that means slaughter house. But today we dont use that word anymore so the new translations use the word 'meat market' instead of 'shambles'I believe this is what the scribes may have been doing in the case of the city of Dan. Of course there are no original scriptures written by Moses own hand today, that would be impossible. But the scribes who made copies of Moses original did make these sorts of changes as the need arose.

How did Moses write the book of Genesis, hieroglyphics, cuneiform? there was no Hebrew alphabet at the alleged time of Moses.

---

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008