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Author Topic:   When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 346 of 702 (570503)
07-27-2010 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Wounded King
07-27-2010 3:08 PM


Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Hi WK,
Wounded King writes:
P.S. I read through the blog post NWR linked to and it makes a good argument why DNA, and most of the other examples I put forward, should not be considered to be information. Which works for me as well, I view an informational approach to biology as a pragmatic rather than a fundamental one, it is useful to the extent it allows us to work out how biological systems function.
I read the same article plus some that was linked to it.
Many of the things you presented were of patterns.
I was particulary interested in the link that went to an article where man has been able to add digital information to DNA.
I view information as a message stored on some media, a means of delivering that information and a receptor of that information that can understand and use it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Wounded King, posted 07-27-2010 3:08 PM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 4:21 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 348 by subbie, posted 07-27-2010 4:26 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 349 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2010 4:29 PM ICANT has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 347 of 702 (570504)
07-27-2010 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by ICANT
07-27-2010 4:19 PM


Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
I view information as a message stored on some media, a means of delivering that information and a receptor of that information that can understand and use it.
That's fair. That's quite mechanistic, though, so I don't see where a mind is required to produce that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 4:19 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 5:17 PM crashfrog has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 348 of 702 (570506)
07-27-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by ICANT
07-27-2010 4:19 PM


Information in tree rings
I view information as a message stored on some media, a means of delivering that information and a receptor of that information that can understand and use it.
Tree rings fit that definition rather nicely. They tell us how old the tree is, as well as provide details about the weather and other environmental conditions for each year.
Does it take intelligence to create a tree ring?
Edited by subbie, : Tyop
Edited by subbie, : Subtitle

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 4:19 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 5:19 PM subbie has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 349 of 702 (570507)
07-27-2010 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by ICANT
07-27-2010 4:19 PM


Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
I view information as a message stored on some media, a means of delivering that information and a receptor of that information that can understand and use it.
A few objections come to mind.
The first is that ribosomes do not understand mRNA.
The second is that in that case a protein sequence would not constitute information, since there's no receptor --- but perhaps you're happy with that.
The third is that I'm not sure that "message" is the right word for the information on the genome ... perhaps now you should try to define the word "message". Without using the word "information", of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 4:19 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 350 of 702 (570513)
07-27-2010 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Dr Adequate
07-27-2010 3:58 PM


Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
Like this: fkjhapi4hfibwpifbpiab034fh.
You had to use English letters and numbers to create that string of characters.
You can not create a string of characters without using those of a known language or making them up. Since there are some 4000 languages I think you would have a hard time dreaming up new characters.
Dr Adequate writes:
Languages are often expressed in strings of characters.
Can you express a language without a string of characters either written or spoken?
Back to Proteins: Thanks for the information WK gave an account also.
Dr Adequate writes:
Biologists are still counting the proteins --- they're harder to count than genes are.
The information contained in the DNA is what these proteins are produced by.
This information is carried to the ribosomes by the messenger RNA.
I have been told the ribosomes can not decide what amino acids to use to make the protein so who decides what information is sent to be used.
So does the DNA decide what information to send to the rebosomes to create 1 of these thousands or hundreds of thousands of proteins?
Or is there a program that is imbeded in the DNA that runs like a program on a computer?
I am sorry that would be intelligent design wouldn't it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2010 3:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by jar, posted 07-27-2010 4:55 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 370 by Huntard, posted 07-28-2010 3:41 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 371 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-28-2010 5:03 AM ICANT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 351 of 702 (570514)
07-27-2010 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by ICANT
07-27-2010 4:50 PM


Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
ICANT writes:
I have been told the ribosomes can not decide what amino acids to use to make the protein so who decides what information is sent to be used.
No one decides what information is sent to be used.
ICANT writes:
So does the DNA decide what information to send to the rebosomes to create 1 of these thousands or hundreds of thousands of proteins?
No. DNA does not decide to do anything.
ICANT writes:
Or is there a program that is imbeded in the DNA that runs like a program on a computer?
No, there is no program in DNA that runs like a program on a computer.
You're three for three it seems.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 4:50 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 352 of 702 (570515)
07-27-2010 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by subbie
07-27-2010 4:15 PM


Re: Antenna gains
Hi subbie,
subbie writes:
It would be interesting if your objections actually had something to do with the topic of the thread. Nobody ever claimed that it came into existence by itself. The point is that the design of the antenna, the particular arrangement of the wires, came about without intelligent input.
It came about because of a computer program that was written by intelligent people, on a machine that was created by intelligent people and you want to say there was no intelligent input.
Now if you could get a program written by a bunch of vipers and run by a bunch of pigs that came up with the design I would agree with you that there was no intelligent input.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : correct addressee

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by subbie, posted 07-27-2010 4:15 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by subbie, posted 07-27-2010 5:04 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 356 by cavediver, posted 07-27-2010 5:20 PM ICANT has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 353 of 702 (570517)
07-27-2010 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by ICANT
07-27-2010 4:56 PM


Re: Antenna gains
It came about because of a computer program that was written by intelligent people, on a machine that was created by intelligent people and you want to say there was no intelligent input.
Please, for the love of god, read my entire post! I explained how the design of the antenna came to be, step by step. I didn't put that in there just to flesh out the post. I put it there so you could understand how it happened.
I don't simply "want to say" there was no intelligent input, I described the process and asked you to show where the intelligent input entered the picture. You instead simply parroted the same crapola you've been repeating ad nauseum, perhaps from birth for all I know.
If you want to say there is intelligent input in the process of creating the arrangement of wires in the antenna, tell us where it entered the process.
We will never make any progress if you insist on ignoring the substance of what we say. If you have no desire to make progress and instead are intent on giving us your impression of a broken record by saying the same wrong things again and again regardless of how many times we correct it, I for one would appreciate it if you would let us know that so we don't waste our time.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 4:56 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 5:26 PM subbie has replied
 Message 363 by Drosophilla, posted 07-27-2010 6:04 PM subbie has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 354 of 702 (570520)
07-27-2010 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by crashfrog
07-27-2010 4:21 PM


Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
That's fair. That's quite mechanistic, though, so I don't see where a mind is required to produce that.
Is there any information on your computer that was not created by an intelligent being?
Is there programs on your computer that does not require any input from you to run and do their job as long as the computer is functioning?
Who/what is responsible for those programs being able to run unattended?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 4:21 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 5:23 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 355 of 702 (570521)
07-27-2010 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by subbie
07-27-2010 4:26 PM


Re: Information in tree rings
Hi subbie,
subbie writes:
Does it take intelligence to create a tree ring?
Tree rings are patterns.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by subbie, posted 07-27-2010 4:26 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by subbie, posted 07-27-2010 5:23 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 359 by onifre, posted 07-27-2010 5:24 PM ICANT has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 356 of 702 (570522)
07-27-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by ICANT
07-27-2010 4:56 PM


Re: Antenna gains
It came about because of a computer program that was written by intelligent people, on a machine that was created by intelligent people and you want to say there was no intelligent input.
If you cannot appreciate the non-intelligent design of the antenna from subbie's more than adequate explanation, then you simply do not have remotely enough intelligence to continue a meaningful discussion on this subject. Pathetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 4:56 PM ICANT has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 357 of 702 (570524)
07-27-2010 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by ICANT
07-27-2010 5:19 PM


Re: Information in tree rings
Tree rings are patterns.
Do tree rings fit your definition of "information?" If not, why not?
Good god, I've had more productive conversations with my 5 year old niece.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 5:19 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 10:33 AM subbie has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 358 of 702 (570525)
07-27-2010 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by ICANT
07-27-2010 5:17 PM


Re: When it comes to Information there is always a big question... how do you measure it?
Is there any information on your computer that was not created by an intelligent being?
Sure. I have backups of my wife's phylogenetic data.
Is there programs on your computer that does not require any input from you to run and do their job as long as the computer is functioning?
Currently some 85 such processes are running.
Who/what is responsible for those programs being able to run unattended?
They're programmed that way by their creators. Just as the creators of genetic algorithms designed their programs to simulate mindlessness.
Are you saying that they failed in that? That their programs don't simulate mindlessness? (How would you know that without looking at the source code?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 5:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by ICANT, posted 07-29-2010 11:08 AM crashfrog has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 359 of 702 (570526)
07-27-2010 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by ICANT
07-27-2010 5:19 PM


Re: Information in tree rings
Subbie writes:
Does it take intelligence to create a tree ring?
ICANT writes:
Tree rings are patterns.
I love lamp.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2010 5:19 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 360 of 702 (570528)
07-27-2010 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by subbie
07-27-2010 5:04 PM


Re: Antenna gains
Hi subbie,
subbie writes:
If you want to say there is intelligent input in the process of creating the arrangement of wires in the antenna, tell us where it entered the process.
The intelligent imput process started when the on button on the computer was pressed to start the computer.
Do it without the computer and program and with no human intervention and I will agree with you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by subbie, posted 07-27-2010 5:04 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 5:27 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 362 by subbie, posted 07-27-2010 5:28 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 372 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-28-2010 5:23 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 373 by Huntard, posted 07-28-2010 9:16 AM ICANT has replied

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