The Ashes

Details are good. BUT I have just realised a quite gaping and probably very embarrassing void in my knowledge.How many players are on the field (note - NOT pitch!!! - I am learning) at any given time? Are the offense and defense limited to the same number of players? Are the special teams the same?Do players get "sent off" for infringements thus causing their team to suffer by being at a disadvantage in terms of numbers?I started writing a whole set of questions about fouls but realised that my ignorance was so complete that my questions made no sense. So more broadly - What constitutes a foul and what penalties are received for the committing of such.Obviously this response is aimed at Mod and anybody else interested or willing as well as Perdition.

Well, let's get basic and detailed. There are 11 players on each side of the ball at all times. (By that, I mean on offense and defense, not necessarily physical relation to actual position of the ball at all times). If a coach or team happens to have fewer players out on the field at the time a play starts, well sucks for them I guess. If they have 12 or more at the time of the snap, they (are supposed to) have a penalty called on them for too many men on the field.This can be used tactically, as there are many players being swapped out at times, an offense may rush to the line of scrimmage and snap the ball while the defense is in the process of getting their players swapped and be caught with too many men. Often, the defense is watching for this, and if they see the offense go "no huddle" or in a "hurry-up offense" they'll forgo their swap-out, and/or run faster to get off/on the field in time. Players can be removed from a game, but no, the team does not suffer from having fewer players on the field because of it. There are always 11 players allowed on the field for each team. Well, broadly, a foul is doing something that is against the rules. There are so many tachnical fouls and things that can/can't be done in certain situations that the best way to learn them is to sit and watch the game with a learned (and patient) individual and ask questions as they come up.In general, penalties result in "loss of yards." A minor infraction will result in 5 yards, more major in 10, even more major (though few in number) in 15. Some penalties result in the line of scrimmage being moved to the place of the foul. Most notable of these is defensive pass interference, where the defender covering a receiver interferes with the body of the receiver before they have made contact with the ball. In theory, both players have equal access to catch the ball, and neither one can bodily stop the other from being able to catch it. They can interfere with the ball, they can hit the person as soon as they touch the ball to try and jar it loose, but they can't pull, yank, trip, or hit the person in an attempt to stop them from catching it.I can go through a partial list of fouls that will come up most often:Holding - no one can grab onto the body or uniform of a person who does not have the football. This usually results in a 5 yard penalty.False start/Neutral zone infraction/Unabaited to the Quarterback - Once everyone is set in their starting positions, no one (with three exceptions: the quarterback, one receiver, and the defender covering that receiver) can move until the ball is snapped. if someone flinches, this is enough to bring down the full force of this penalty, though it has to be seen by the refs. Often, one team will try and draw the other offsides by trying to make it seem they're about to move, flinching out of sight of the ref, or by the quarterback doing a "hard count." If a player not only moves, but moves into the line that runs the width of the field that is the width of the football (the line of scrimmage/neutral zone, this is considered worse, and finally, if the defender goes all the way to the quarterback and hits him, this is worst of all.Offsides - If the ball is snapped and someone is on the wrong side of the football, this results in a 5 yard penalty. The offense can try to snap the ball while substitutions are taking palce such that a leaving or entering player of the opposite team is on the wrong side of the ball. Also, a player can get set in position with part of their body in the neutral zone or even farther over. This most often happens with line men, but can happen with wide receivers who are much farther from the ball and have a hard time seeing exactly where the line is.Late hit/illegal hit - Hitting a ball carrier after the play has been blown dead, or after they are already out of bounds is a penalty of usually 5 yards. An egregious hit can result in an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty of 10 yards or more. There are also type of tackle, block, and hit that are not legal for safety reasons. Employing one of these will result in, again, usually a 5 yard penalty, but possibly more.Facemask - Grabbing onto the facemask of any player at any time will result in a 5 yard penalty.There are all kinds of rules regarding who is/is not an eligible receiver; when and where the quarterback can throw the ball; whi can do what at what time that it would be impossible to list all of them. Some plays are illegal because of one instance where it was employed legally, but everyone decided it should not be allowed, and so was made illegal. Many of these don't come up too often because they were a rare occurrance to begin with.If you need even more basic information, feel free to ask, and if you need clarification, I'll gladly provide that as well.

Cool. I will read your answer properly and comment later.But my initial reaction is that it all sounds quite complicated!! Earlier in this thread the comment was made that cricket had it's 42 "laws". See Message 17Gridiron seems just as complicated and rule bound in it's own way. Are there an official set of rules I can find online anywhere? How many rules are there?

Indeed I have. I have even won some (very limited) prize money from doing so. It was in a British national newspaper called the Telegraph (very establishment right wing sort of newspaper but had the best cricket coverage at the time).I think I won a hundred pounds for the team of the month. Twice!! It was based on the English domestic county championship. Many many many years ago though.I have also taken part in work arranged fantasy leagues at the time of cricket world cups etc. but always done quite poorly as a result of injured players and the like.In general cricket lends itself well to this sort of thing. It is a very stats heavy game and most individual performances can be measured to some extent.

To me, 42 rules seems to be quite few. Most every other major sport I know of has pages and pages of rules, detailing things from scoring, to time keeping, to penalties, etc. I think the incredulity at the 42 rules part was due to the fact that 42 is the answer to life the universe and everything. NFL Football Operations | NFL Football OperationsThis would be a good place to start, but to be perfectly honest, reading through rules may just bowl someone over who has little knowledge of the actual application of those rules. I would think it would be better to start with a basic foundation of the game and let the minutiae and details come in as your understanding grows. Well, the summary of the game can be made, just as with basketball or baseball, without referencing too many rules, and then get more complicated as situations arise that need rulings.For those who need a basic primer on the game of football:The game is played on a field that is 100 yards long with endzones at either end adding 10 more yards to either end by 53 yards wide. The field has lines at each 5 yard mark going all the way across the field and little tics to show each individual yard between the 5 yard lines.The offense has 4 tries to go 10 yards from their initial starting position, and 4 tries to go each subsequent 10 yards based off their last position. If they fail to make it the 10 yards, the possession is given to the other team. If they make it to the other team's end zone, they gain 6 points. They can try for an additional 1 or 2 points by either kicking an extra point through the uprights at either end of the field, or by scoring another touchdown in one play from the 2 yard line. Once they score, the posession is given back to the other team to try. If they don't think they can get a touchdown or get to the next 10 yard goal, they can decide to punt the ball to the other team, giving up posession but pushing the other team further back down the field, or they can try to kick a fieldgoal through the same uprights as with the extra point, this time scoring 3 points.The team with the most points when the game ends is the winner.Everything else gets down to the nitty gritty, but this is the basic understanding necessary to build anything else on.Edited by Perdition, : No reason given.

The Wikipedia entry on American Football is quite good at the basics.There are quite a few more than 42 "Laws" and can be extremely detailed and picky. Certain line-ups of the Offense must have specific players in specific positions on or off the scrimmage line, who can use their hands in some situations and not others, etc.Infractions usually result in "loss of yardage" ie the ball is moved back so-many yards on an Offensive foul or is advanced so-many on a Defensive infraction. Only when a player gets real mean, does something stupid (touching a ref in anger) does the player get tossed out of the game. The offending team does, however, get to replace him. Both teams are required to have 11 men on the field.Short term goal is for the Offense to advance the ball by run or pass 10 yards. You have 4 "downs" to do this. If after 3rd down you have not advanced 10 yards you usually kick the ball down field to the other team hoping to back them up and have them start their series further down. If you do get the 10 yards you "get a first down" and now have another 4 plays to make another First Down. This keeps up until your runner crosses over the Goal Line or your receiver catches the ball in the end zone for a Touchdown (6 points).If you can't get the 10 yards required by third down you can opt to kick (as above) or, depending on field position, personnel skill, time left, etc, you may "go for it" on 4th down. If you cross the first down marker you get a First Down and continue your march toward the end zone. If you fail to reach the first down marker the ball, at that spot, goes over to the other team who then become Offense to your Defense and will start the march the other way.Each team has about 55 players. Substitutions are constant and there are unique teams for Offense, Defense and Special Teams for kick-off. The make-up of each team depends on the situation and will change personnel each play. Some times there are 2 wide receivers on the offense team sometimes there are 3. You may have 2 linebackers on defense or you may have 4. All depending upon the position, down situation and time.Penalties kill offensive drives. Since the first down marker (that line you have to cross to get another first down) does not move (usually) when a penalty is assessed, you can have bad situations like "1st and 20" (you're on your first down, have a 10-yard penalty, the down doesn't count but now you have to go 20 yards to get another first down. Worse yet is 3rd and 25. You're on your third down and have to make up 25 yards to get that precious first.After this the situation gets complicated.The Offense must "freeze" for 1 second prior to the center snapping the ball (through his legs) to the quarterback. Any movement (even a flinch) will pull a penalty flag and 5-yards lost ground.
Certain players may not cross the line of scrimmage (where the ball starts) for certain periods until something else happens and it gets real messy from there.Offensive linemen cannot pull the jersey, padding, arm or hold on to any part of the defensive player for any reason. The defensive guy, however, and grab (except the face mask), push, trip, just about anything short of pulling out a baseball bat and whacking the offensive player over the head with it. On Offense, the biggest drive killer in the game is a "Holding" call. A couple of these in a series will ruin a coaches attitude. Bill "Tuna" Parcels used to go through the roof, rant, rave and look real hard at players pulling flags for holding. Despite what was said up-thread, Holding on Offense is a 10-yarder.There are serious penalties "Personal Fouls" for being too rough, hitting a down player helmet first (Spearing), looking at the Ref cross-eyed (Refs are real, real touchy) and a number of others that will cost your team 15 yards. After your team makes a touchdowns and all your players stand in the end zone dancing and jiving and carrying on will pull a flag - personal foul - excessive celebration. Serious, it's a real penalty.And the foul list goes on.Did I mention things get quite complicated after this? Wiki on Am FootballPenaltiesEdited by AZPaul3, : edits.Edited by AZPaul3, : More edits.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : and even more edits

Hi, Straggler.The reason there are so many rules in American football is because there are so many ways you can get hurt. Players are always running all over the field, on either side of the line of scrimmage, unlike in Rugby. The result is that tackles come from all kinds of awkward angles, and it's impossible to brace yourself against it.For instance, pass interference, like Perdition introduced, was added because the receiver has to often put himself in a very precarious, awkward position in order to catch the ball, and can't afford to look at anything but the ball while he's doing it: if the defense could shove him around before he caught the ball, he would almost certainly get injured. So, they outlawed it.Most of the other rules are for the same reason: grabbing the facemask often causes the head to be wrenched around, and neck injuries can happen, so no one is allowed to grab facemasks; quarterbacks are often watching downfield after the pass to see if the receiver caught it and how far they got after catching, so it's illegal to hit them too long after they've released the ball.The basic principle is quite simple, though.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

To be clear...Offensive holding, illegal use of hands arms or body is a 10 yard penalty. Defensive holding (which is a penalty) is a 5 yard penalty.

Defensive holding is a 5 yard penalty AND an automatic first down for the offense.

Yeah, most defensive penalties include an automatic first down. In fact, on the nfl.com page about penalties, it finds it easier to list the few defensive penalties which DO NOT result in an automatic first down.In short, if you're on defense, don't do nothin' wrong or you're just giving the offense another 4 down shot.

Mine too. Online draft for the first time, we usually do a live one. I'm not thrilled, but it should be okay, I guess. Too many guys too far apart to get all together this year, that's all.As far as fantasy sports go, football has to be the one made to specifically complement the idea. It all comes from the games all being played on weekends (or close enough) to have set days for "picking up off the waiver (players no team-owner has yet)" and setting your line-up. It's just a great system.Also, with the NFL's salary-cap system (each team only has so much money it can spend on players), football remains one of the most balanced sports in all of large Western atheletics.I didn't know a thing about football 'till I joined a fantasy league about 7 or 8 years ago. Those things really get you lookin' at the games and players.Stile
-Miami Dolphins fan ever since I was 9 and decided I liked the look of their sweaters. The grey-based ones. Any of the teal-green or bright-orange based ones are ridiculous.
And I'm pretty sure all other teams may as well just go home... I have it on very good confidence that the NFL has already awarded the 2009 superbowl to Miami. Just 'cause it's so obvious and all. In fact, I think they did this last year, even. On Miami's BYE week.

Well, in that case, I would expect you to draft mostly Dolphin players for your FF draft.

Dan Marino! For the win!You'd think you could start making the same joke with Brett Favre by now... but no...I heard rumours that the Vikings had all but given up hope of pulling him out of retirement (again...) except for one last "why not?" phone call from an agent.

Brett Favre is a touchy subject...Packer fan, remember?But unlike many in the area, I'm not angry at him so much. It was a bad situation that was handled poorly on both sides last year. My fiancee has a sports major, and has worked with sports players for years. She's seen this type of, "What am I if I'm no longer playing sports?" mentality too often for me to get angry at someone for it.Be that as it may, Favre is still a good quarterback. He's not great any more, and in some cases is more of a hindrance than a help, and I think the Vikings are going to end up losing the division because of it. But I can't wait until he gains the consecutive start record. For a QB to hold that is a major accomplishment.

I agree. To me, I just see him as a guy who wants to keep playing. I just think the whole situation is funny to laugh about Draft... draft... MJD or Adrian Fumbleson?... When to take that first WR? So many questions and I don't even get to know draft position until 30min. before the draft...Draft night is awesome-sauce.
(Ours actually just got moved to Wednesday... too many guys with time conflicts).