I typed out a long response, didnt finish.....and came back an hour later AFTER my four year old decided to play on the computer. All gone.
So I have a few minutes, I'll make this a tad shorter.
hERICtic writes:
Hence why I always state the end of 14th, beginning of 15th. The meal can be eaten and carry unto the next day.
Peg writes:
you forget that the scriptures say that 'none of the passover meal is to be left over till the next morning'
Exodus 12:10 And YOU must not leave any of it over till morning, but what is left over of it till morning YOU should burn with fire
I didnt forget. In fact, it clearly points to the 15th, since scripture states they left on the morning OF the 15th.
hERICtic writes:
Evening is the going down of the sun. The going down of the sun is not the beginning of the next day. When the sun IS down, ti begins.
Peg writes:
well as i've mentioned, the Kiraite jews and the Samaritans both beleive that that 'between the two evenings' is the time between when the sun is no longer visible on the horizon and darkness sets in.
here is the reference
Commentary on the Old Testament, 1973, Vol. I, The Second Book of Moses, p. 12 writes:
Different opinions have prevailed among the Jews from a very early date as to the precise time intended. Aben Ezra agrees with the Caraites and Samaritans in taking the first evening to be the time when the sun sinks below the horizon, and the second the time of total darkness; in which case, ‘between the two evenings’ would be from 6 o’clock to 7.20. . . . According to the rabbinical idea, the time when the sun began to descend, viz. from 3 to 5 o’clock, was the first evening, and sunset the second; so that ‘between the two evenings’ was from 3 to 6 o’clock. Modern expositors have very properly decided in favour of the view held by Aben Ezra and the custom adopted by the Caraites and Samaritans.
First, what does it matter how some Jews celebrated the Passover. What is actually in scripture is important. Those are gods laws. Do you think Jesus followed his fathers laws or what some Jews did? Second, nothing in your information suggests "evening" was in the first part of the day. The difference is between 3-6 and 6-7:20.
hERICtic writes:
C'mon Peg. Its giving you the layout of the day. 2 lambs DAILY. It states the morning and the evening. If, as you claim, by "evening" refers to the next day, it would be one lamb.
Peg writes:
that very ceremony you are quoting from states that it was to run over 7 days... so how do you fit 2 lambs into 7 days if a lamb had to be offered at morniing and evening for 7 days? Im sure that would amount to 14 lambs.
I cant believe you just said that. You argue all the time about focusing on scripture, then when scripture disagrees with you, you change what scripture states.
It states crystal clear, two lambs DAILY. It does not say evening, then in the morning at all. It states one in the morning, one in the evening. This is clearly two on one day.
You have yet to give a single scripture that states an "evening" event refers to the beginning of the day. I on the other hand, have given you quite a bit of OT scripture that clearly shows its the end of the day.
hERICtic writes:
Yes, the new day begins at sundown. But if you keep reading (would have helped if I included the rest of the scripture) it clearly states there was still light at evening. Therefore, the sun has not set, its still the same day.
Peg writes:
i think you will find that this is the point at issue...when exctly does the new day begin!
does it begin as soon as the sun begins to decsend after noon as you are suggesting?
You misunderstood. I didnt say the new day began when the start of the sun goes down. I was just trying to show at noon, the sun is highest then after this point is slowly descends.
Peg writes:
or does it begin when it has completely dissapeared from the horizon and light is still in the sky?
or does it begin in the darkness of night???
I am taking the view that it begins when the sun has set on the horizon and there is still light in the sky...this is in harmony with my reference to the 'commentary on the Old Testament'
Peg, every reference I have given, evening, s the time before the sunset. But there are some instances where it appears "evening" is used in place of sunset. In either case, it refers to darkness. Heck, even Genesis states this. The point is, in Kings, its still daylight when the clouds hit. Its still the same day.
Again, you have not given one scripture to counter anything I have stated. Not one. You have taken ambigious scripture with your opinion that it means the beginning of the day, but not one that actually provides evidence for this.
hERICtic writes:
Your scenario: Lambs slain on early 14th. Lambs eaten that night, before morning. When evening arrives, its the next day, the 15th.
Luke states: Lambs slain. Preparations made, evening arrives when they sit down for the meal. That could only mean the end of the day, the beginning of the 15th they are eating their meal.
Peg writes:
No, it doesnt mean that at all. You may recall one of my earlier posts where i said the preparations were made on the 13th....then when the sun set on the horizon and the new day began, now the 14th, the celebration began and the lambs were eaten between the two evenings...while there was still light in the sky.
this has always been my position.
Hold on a second. You made it clear the lambs were slain on the 14th. Naturally, there must be preparations the day before, but there are also preparations to eat once the lamb is slain. I am not refering to those events needed prior to the 14th. I am refering to that fact that Luke states the lambs were slain on X day and that evening, later that day or the following night Jesus eats his last meal.
Peg writes:
You keep saying that the evening meant that it was the 'end' of the day... its not. Its the beginning of the day.
Luke said that preparations were being made for the passover....he was speaking of the 13th. Then at sunset, they ate the meal in the upper room, this is now the beginnign of the 14th.
anyway, we've been going over and over this and im getting tired of repeating myself.
You keep repeating yourself bc you keep ignoring not only what you state but what I state.
You already stated the lambs were slain on the 14th, NOT the 13th. You have said this numerous times.
Not only have you admitted it was the 14th, you stated it was NOT the 13th. Message 70:
I never said they were slain on the 13th...i said they were prepared on the 13th in the hours before the 14th began which is at sundown.
If the lambs were slain on the 14th, this is either on the evening or past that point. Luke then states ANOTHER evening came..which can only mean its later on the 14th or the 15th. This is the part you keep missing or ignoring.
Mark 14 writes:
12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
Again, you have stated the lambs were not slain on the 13th, but the 14th. This is the part you keep missing. Just to keep this simple, we'll say 6:01 pm is the start of the 14th. This would be evening, either the end of the 13th or the beginning of the 14th. Whatever the case, its evening. So at this point, they were to make preparations to eat the Passover.
16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."
Notice what it states! Evening came! This is AFTER the start of the day. This can only be the end of the day or the beginning of the 15th!
Do you understand this now? You can argue all you want that an eveving in the OT means the start of the day, its a seperate issue from the gospel accounts.
In the synoptics, Jesus could NOT have eaten his meal early 14th, for the simple fact it states the day the lambs are slain are upon them, which automatically means the 14th (or the 15th if you want to argue the days are combined) so evening (the start of the day is already there). It further goes on to state preparations are made to eat the lamb, THEN evening comes. This can ONLY mean its the end of the day, or the start of the new one.
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