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Author | Topic: Potential falsifications of the theory of evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Are you suggesting that these two papers allow the Wikipedia troll to continue to claim that Haldane's Dilemma has been solved? The whole point is that Haldane was never able to show that there really is a dilemma. Haldane lacked sequence data, the very thing he was trying to model. Before you ask for solutions to a problem perhaps you should demonstrate that there is a problem to begin with.
Evolutionists can't show how RM/NS can create a single enzyme, Sure you have been told about the nylonase gene?http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm There is also Hall's EBG (evolved beta-galactosidase):The EBG system of E. coli: origin and evolution of a novel beta-galactosidase for the metabolism of lactose - PubMed Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4444 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Hi ICANT,
Back in Message 318 I tried to clear up your mis-understandings about Macro-Evolution. ICANT writes: There is no direct evidence of 'Macro-Evolution' having ever taken place from all the little mutations that occur in species. You did not respond and disappeared from the scene. This is the second time I tried to help you understand only to have you run away. The first was here: Can I disprove Macro-Evolution thread Message 237. I suppose the next time you pop in, you will spout this nonsense again, ignoring the fact that someone tried to explain it to you. Tactimatically speaking, the molecubes are out of alignment. -- S.Valley What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Tanypteryx,
Tanypteryx writes: Back in Message 318 I tried to clear up your mis-understandings about Macro-Evolution. Had you read what I had written in that thread you would not be supprised that I did not answer your nonsense. But to save you time I will put most of it here. In Message 21 I presented the following in a post to JRTjr. In Message 167 RAZD said to ABO:
RAZD writes: We do have evidence, evidence from several lines of investigation that do actually prove that common descent occurs: you are a product of common descent from your parents, your grandparents, your great-grandparents, etcetera; this is a fact. We also have evidence of non-arbitrary speciation events where the result is two populations that cannot or don't interbreed (the definition of species) that have both evolved from their common ancestor population: this too is a fact. We also have evidence from genetic studies that show again and again that common ancestry occurs, and HAS occurred in the past. When you get down to the theory of common descent extending back to a primal common ancestor population, then yes, there is a degree of "faith" to believe it, because it is a prediction of the theory and has not been validated (nor invalidated) to date. However, this degree of "faith" is very different from your implication that it is like religion where things are believed without ANY evidence and without question. The later point is critical: science does not believe any theory without question. In the same message RAZD said:
RAZD writes:
This was presented to show that the faith he was talking about is different from the faith ABO had.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. Berkeley Evolution 101 writes: What is macroevolution? Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level. So instead of focusing on an individual beetle species, a macroevolutionary lens might require that we zoom out on the tree of life, to assess the diversity of the entire beetle clade and its position on the tree. Macroevolution refers to evolution of groups larger than an individual species. Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants. Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life. It is not necessarily easy to "see" macroevolutionary history; there are no firsthand accounts to be read. Instead, we reconstruct the history of life using all available evidence: geology, fossils, and living organisms. Once we've figured out what evolutionary events have taken place, we try to figure out how they happened. Just as in microevolution, basic evolutionary mechanisms like mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection are at work and can help explain many large-scale patterns in the history of life. Source Now is you have verifiable evidence that macroevolution has occurred present it now.
Tanypteryx writes: You did not respond and disappeared from the scene. This is the second time I tried to help you understand only to have you run away. All the above information was available in the thread "Can I Disprove Macro-Evolution"? So explain why I should repeat it again for you. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Now is [sic] you have verifiable evidence that macroevolution has occurred present it now. 29 Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1 This has been posted many times. The fact that you don't like or accept this does not mean it is not evidence. Your attempts to hand-wave it away mean nothing. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes: This has been posted many times. The fact that you don't like or accept this does not mean it is not evidence. Your attempts to hand-wave it away mean nothing. You present a picture of 14 skulls and claim that is evidence of 'Macro-Evolution". The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull. Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
You present a picture of 14 skulls and claim that is evidence of 'Macro-Evolution".
Not even a very good hand-wave. The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull. Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion. But I guess if you are afraid to look at the evidence, then it doesn't matter how good that evidence is. Suffice it to say that experts have looked at that evidence and those skulls represent macro-evolution. I looked at that evidence for several years in grad school and that was one of the subjects on my Ph.D. exams. Hand-wave all you want, it doesn't make it go away. The evidence is there, staring you in the face whether you look or not. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You present a picture of 14 skulls and claim that is evidence of 'Macro-Evolution". The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull. It is evidence, ICANT.
Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion. A conclusion based on evidence. You could use your same argumentation to say that nothing is evidence of anything
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull. We have also presented the fact that the theory of evolution predicts that those creatures with those particular skulls should have existed if the theory of evolution is true. Therefore, these skulls are evidence for the theory of evolution. Why don't you take your dog and pony show to a court room sometime. You can tell the jury that those fingerprints are not evidence against your client. OH NO, that can't be. Those swirls of oil are just that, swirls of oil. You can conclude what you want from those swirls, but it will be nothing more than your interpretation and not science, right?
Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion. Yes, a well evidenced and scientific conclusion. That's our point.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4444 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Hi ICANT, welcome back.
ICANT writes: Had you read what I had written in that thread you would not be supprised that I did not answer your nonsense. OK, I did read what you wrote in that thread before I posted. So could you do me the courtesy of pointing out just which parts of my explanation you think are nonsense? You posted some information from Berkely Evolution 101 "What is macroevolution?"
What do YOU think their description means? Berkeley Evolution 101 writes: Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants. Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life. When we look at a tree diagram that shows the major branches of different related groups of organisms like the Mammals we see the Mammals are all on the same branch. Now if we were to zoom in on the base of that branch we would see that there was a single species that was barely any different from the species it split from. When those two populations stopped interbreeding they continued changing, minutely, each generation. They slowly become a little less like each other each generation. This is microevolution and it continues so each generation is a little different than the one before it. Eventually something happens and the species that is on the Mammal branch splits again. (This split could be something as simple as being on two side of a river or differences in food preferences or changes in behavior.) The point I am trying to make is that from generation to generation microevolution keeps happening. If there was an observer watching they would see populations of animals slowly changing and occasionally splitting into subpopulations that continue to slowly change independently. The observer would just see species slowly changing. They would not say to themselves "Aha, this is going to be the Mammals and there will be thousands of species of Mammals. It is only millions of years later when we look at the thousands of living Mammal species and the tens of thousands of extinct Mammal species that we can see what happend and try to understand it. There was never a special different kind of process that raised a big flag and said "This is a Macroevolutionary Event". It was just microevolution happening every generation. It is only when we see the results of these simple early branchings millions of years later that the trends become apparent. It is possible that simple splits in populations happening today will lead to what would be seen, millions of years from now, as major branches on the tree of life. I know you will reject what I have explained, but at least I tried. Enjoy Tactimatically speaking, the molecubes are out of alignment. -- S.Valley What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley
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Meddle Member (Idle past 1298 days) Posts: 179 From: Scotland Joined: |
Look again at those skulls. The first skull (A) is a modern chimpanzee, the last (N) is a modern human. Taken in isolation, I think you'd agree that to transition from chimpanzee to human would be described as macroevolution. But we also have these transitional fossils from the Australopithecines, whose skulls are morphologically similar to modern chimpanzees, through Homo habilis, erectus et al. showing this general trend of microevolutionary changes.
It is this that Taq, Coyote, Tanypteryx and others having been trying to get you to understand, that these gradual microevolutionary changes we see in species in the fossil record build up to what would be described as the macroevolutionary difference between humans and chimpanzees. Edited by Malcolm, : No reason given.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined:
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Taq writes: Why don't you take your dog and pony show to a court room sometime. You can tell the jury that those fingerprints are not evidence against your client. OH NO, that can't be. Those swirls of oil are just that, swirls of oil. You can conclude what you want from those swirls, but it will be nothing more than your interpretation and not science, right? no, your honor. that video means nothing, as it doesn't actually show my client shooting the victim. while we know that bullets do indeed move through time and space, you've only managed to capture a series of still frames that represent the position of a bullet at any given time. you can't actually show that the bullet in one frame is in any way related to the bullet in the next. maybe it's just coincidence that two bullets happened to magically appear and then disappear in similar places, one shortly following the other. it takes speculation, and operating from a certain viewpoint that is highly prejudiced against my client. oh, and that smoking gun and the dna? you'll just have to ignore those, as a 99.99% match isn't exactly conclusive. nor does a smoking gun actually prove much of anything, just that my client owned a gun and used it at some point -- there's no good way to link it to the victim, at that time and place. the witnesses, you say? clearly they are conspiring against my client. ... ...guys, i'm telling you. if i ever kill somebody, i want a creationist to be my lawyer.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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arachnophilia writes: ...guys, i'm telling you. if i ever kill somebody, i want a creationist to be my lawyer. No you don't. Creationists do have the advantage that they can make those kinds of arguments with a straight face, but every time they go to court they lose. --Percy
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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oh, and that smoking gun and the dna? you'll just have to ignore those, as a 99.99% match isn't exactly conclusive. The DNA evidence is best explained by a common designer, not a common source. Obviously, the creator of my client also produced the DNA at the crime scene.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
You present a picture of 14 skulls and claim that is evidence of 'Macro-Evolution". The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull. Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion. You present 14 lion footprints and claim that that is evidence that a lion walked that way. The only thing you have presented is 14 footprints that prove that a creature existed at one time that left that particular footprint. Anything else you want to conclude from those footprints is your conclusion. --- You do present a challenge to evolution. Why weren't your ancestors eaten by lions?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Percy writes: No you don't. Creationists do have the advantage that they can make those kinds of arguments with a straight face, but every time they go to court they lose. yes, but if i was caught on video, seen by a bunch of eyewitnesses, and found holding the smoking gun, it'd be about the only argument that could be made. that, and insanity. which hiring a creationist fraud as a lawyer should sufficiently demonstrate, imho.
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