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Author Topic:   Potential falsifications of the theory of evolution
Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 346 of 968 (596187)
12-13-2010 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Kaichos Man
12-11-2010 12:11 AM


Re: Potential falsifications
Are you suggesting that these two papers allow the Wikipedia troll to continue to claim that Haldane's Dilemma has been solved?
The whole point is that Haldane was never able to show that there really is a dilemma. Haldane lacked sequence data, the very thing he was trying to model.
Before you ask for solutions to a problem perhaps you should demonstrate that there is a problem to begin with.
Evolutionists can't show how RM/NS can create a single enzyme,
Sure you have been told about the nylonase gene?
http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm
There is also Hall's EBG (evolved beta-galactosidase):
The EBG system of E. coli: origin and evolution of a novel beta-galactosidase for the metabolism of lactose - PubMed
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Kaichos Man, posted 12-11-2010 12:11 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4444
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 347 of 968 (598803)
01-02-2011 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by ICANT
11-27-2010 7:48 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Hi ICANT,
Back in Message 318 I tried to clear up your mis-understandings about Macro-Evolution.
ICANT writes:
There is no direct evidence of 'Macro-Evolution' having ever taken place from all the little mutations that occur in species.
You did not respond and disappeared from the scene. This is the second time I tried to help you understand only to have you run away. The first was here: Can I disprove Macro-Evolution thread Message 237.
I suppose the next time you pop in, you will spout this nonsense again, ignoring the fact that someone tried to explain it to you.

Tactimatically speaking, the molecubes are out of alignment. -- S.Valley
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by ICANT, posted 11-27-2010 7:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 12:45 AM Tanypteryx has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 348 of 968 (598828)
01-03-2011 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Tanypteryx
01-02-2011 7:04 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Hi Tanypteryx,
Tanypteryx writes:
Back in Message 318 I tried to clear up your mis-understandings about Macro-Evolution.
Had you read what I had written in that thread you would not be supprised that I did not answer your nonsense.
But to save you time I will put most of it here.
In Message 21 I presented the following in a post to JRTjr.
In Message 167 RAZD said to ABO:
RAZD writes:
We do have evidence, evidence from several lines of investigation that do actually prove that common descent occurs: you are a product of common descent from your parents, your grandparents, your great-grandparents, etcetera; this is a fact. We also have evidence of non-arbitrary speciation events where the result is two populations that cannot or don't interbreed (the definition of species) that have both evolved from their common ancestor population: this too is a fact. We also have evidence from genetic studies that show again and again that common ancestry occurs, and HAS occurred in the past.
When you get down to the theory of common descent extending back to a primal common ancestor population, then yes, there is a degree of "faith" to believe it, because it is a prediction of the theory and has not been validated (nor invalidated) to date. However, this degree of "faith" is very different from your implication that it is like religion where things are believed without ANY evidence and without question. The later point is critical: science does not believe any theory without question.
In the same message RAZD said:
RAZD writes:
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
This was presented to show that the faith he was talking about is different from the faith ABO had.
Berkeley Evolution 101 writes:
What is macroevolution?
Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level. So instead of focusing on an individual beetle species, a macroevolutionary lens might require that we zoom out on the tree of life, to assess the diversity of the entire beetle clade and its position on the tree.
Macroevolution refers to evolution of groups larger than an individual species.
Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants. Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life.
It is not necessarily easy to "see" macroevolutionary history; there are no firsthand accounts to be read. Instead, we reconstruct the history of life using all available evidence: geology, fossils, and living organisms.
Once we've figured out what evolutionary events have taken place, we try to figure out how they happened. Just as in microevolution, basic evolutionary mechanisms like mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection are at work and can help explain many large-scale patterns in the history of life.
Source
Now is you have verifiable evidence that macroevolution has occurred present it now.
Tanypteryx writes:
You did not respond and disappeared from the scene. This is the second time I tried to help you understand only to have you run away.
All the above information was available in the thread "Can I Disprove Macro-Evolution"?
So explain why I should repeat it again for you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-02-2011 7:04 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Coyote, posted 01-03-2011 1:05 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 354 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-04-2011 10:36 AM ICANT has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 349 of 968 (598831)
01-03-2011 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by ICANT
01-03-2011 12:45 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Now is [sic] you have verifiable evidence that macroevolution has occurred present it now.
29 Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1
This has been posted many times. The fact that you don't like or accept this does not mean it is not evidence. Your attempts to hand-wave it away mean nothing.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 12:45 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 10:34 AM Coyote has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 350 of 968 (598851)
01-03-2011 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Coyote
01-03-2011 1:05 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes:
This has been posted many times. The fact that you don't like or accept this does not mean it is not evidence. Your attempts to hand-wave it away mean nothing.
You present a picture of 14 skulls and claim that is evidence of 'Macro-Evolution".
The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull.
Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Coyote, posted 01-03-2011 1:05 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Coyote, posted 01-03-2011 11:07 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 352 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-03-2011 11:15 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 353 by Taq, posted 01-03-2011 5:02 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 355 by Meddle, posted 01-04-2011 9:21 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 359 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2011 12:09 PM ICANT has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 351 of 968 (598856)
01-03-2011 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by ICANT
01-03-2011 10:34 AM


Dismissing the evidence with a simple hand-wave
You present a picture of 14 skulls and claim that is evidence of 'Macro-Evolution".
The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull.
Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion.
Not even a very good hand-wave.
But I guess if you are afraid to look at the evidence, then it doesn't matter how good that evidence is.
Suffice it to say that experts have looked at that evidence and those skulls represent macro-evolution. I looked at that evidence for several years in grad school and that was one of the subjects on my Ph.D. exams.
Hand-wave all you want, it doesn't make it go away. The evidence is there, staring you in the face whether you look or not.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 10:34 AM ICANT has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 352 of 968 (598857)
01-03-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by ICANT
01-03-2011 10:34 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
You present a picture of 14 skulls and claim that is evidence of 'Macro-Evolution".
The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull.
It is evidence, ICANT.
Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion.
A conclusion based on evidence.
You could use your same argumentation to say that nothing is evidence of anything

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 10:34 AM ICANT has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 353 of 968 (598907)
01-03-2011 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by ICANT
01-03-2011 10:34 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull.
We have also presented the fact that the theory of evolution predicts that those creatures with those particular skulls should have existed if the theory of evolution is true. Therefore, these skulls are evidence for the theory of evolution.
Why don't you take your dog and pony show to a court room sometime. You can tell the jury that those fingerprints are not evidence against your client. OH NO, that can't be. Those swirls of oil are just that, swirls of oil. You can conclude what you want from those swirls, but it will be nothing more than your interpretation and not science, right?
Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion.
Yes, a well evidenced and scientific conclusion. That's our point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 10:34 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2011 11:04 PM Taq has replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4444
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 354 of 968 (598941)
01-04-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by ICANT
01-03-2011 12:45 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Hi ICANT, welcome back.
ICANT writes:
Had you read what I had written in that thread you would not be supprised that I did not answer your nonsense.
OK, I did read what you wrote in that thread before I posted. So could you do me the courtesy of pointing out just which parts of my explanation you think are nonsense?
You posted some information from Berkely Evolution 101 "What is macroevolution?"
What do YOU think their description means?
Berkeley Evolution 101 writes:
Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants. Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life.
When we look at a tree diagram that shows the major branches of different related groups of organisms like the Mammals we see the Mammals are all on the same branch. Now if we were to zoom in on the base of that branch we would see that there was a single species that was barely any different from the species it split from. When those two populations stopped interbreeding they continued changing, minutely, each generation. They slowly become a little less like each other each generation. This is microevolution and it continues so each generation is a little different than the one before it. Eventually something happens and the species that is on the Mammal branch splits again. (This split could be something as simple as being on two side of a river or differences in food preferences or changes in behavior.)
The point I am trying to make is that from generation to generation microevolution keeps happening. If there was an observer watching they would see populations of animals slowly changing and occasionally splitting into subpopulations that continue to slowly change independently. The observer would just see species slowly changing. They would not say to themselves "Aha, this is going to be the Mammals and there will be thousands of species of Mammals. It is only millions of years later when we look at the thousands of living Mammal species and the tens of thousands of extinct Mammal species that we can see what happend and try to understand it.
There was never a special different kind of process that raised a big flag and said "This is a Macroevolutionary Event". It was just microevolution happening every generation. It is only when we see the results of these simple early branchings millions of years later that the trends become apparent.
It is possible that simple splits in populations happening today will lead to what would be seen, millions of years from now, as major branches on the tree of life.
I know you will reject what I have explained, but at least I tried.
Enjoy

Tactimatically speaking, the molecubes are out of alignment. -- S.Valley
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 12:45 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by ICANT, posted 01-09-2011 12:34 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Meddle
Member (Idle past 1298 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 355 of 968 (599089)
01-04-2011 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by ICANT
01-03-2011 10:34 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Look again at those skulls. The first skull (A) is a modern chimpanzee, the last (N) is a modern human. Taken in isolation, I think you'd agree that to transition from chimpanzee to human would be described as macroevolution. But we also have these transitional fossils from the Australopithecines, whose skulls are morphologically similar to modern chimpanzees, through Homo habilis, erectus et al. showing this general trend of microevolutionary changes.
It is this that Taq, Coyote, Tanypteryx and others having been trying to get you to understand, that these gradual microevolutionary changes we see in species in the fossil record build up to what would be described as the macroevolutionary difference between humans and chimpanzees.
Edited by Malcolm, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 10:34 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-11-2011 11:49 PM Meddle has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


(1)
Message 356 of 968 (599105)
01-04-2011 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Taq
01-03-2011 5:02 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Taq writes:
Why don't you take your dog and pony show to a court room sometime. You can tell the jury that those fingerprints are not evidence against your client. OH NO, that can't be. Those swirls of oil are just that, swirls of oil. You can conclude what you want from those swirls, but it will be nothing more than your interpretation and not science, right?
no, your honor. that video means nothing, as it doesn't actually show my client shooting the victim. while we know that bullets do indeed move through time and space, you've only managed to capture a series of still frames that represent the position of a bullet at any given time. you can't actually show that the bullet in one frame is in any way related to the bullet in the next. maybe it's just coincidence that two bullets happened to magically appear and then disappear in similar places, one shortly following the other. it takes speculation, and operating from a certain viewpoint that is highly prejudiced against my client.
oh, and that smoking gun and the dna? you'll just have to ignore those, as a 99.99% match isn't exactly conclusive. nor does a smoking gun actually prove much of anything, just that my client owned a gun and used it at some point -- there's no good way to link it to the victim, at that time and place.
the witnesses, you say? clearly they are conspiring against my client.
...
...guys, i'm telling you. if i ever kill somebody, i want a creationist to be my lawyer.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Taq, posted 01-03-2011 5:02 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Percy, posted 01-05-2011 8:03 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 358 by Taq, posted 01-05-2011 11:36 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 357 of 968 (599137)
01-05-2011 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by arachnophilia
01-04-2011 11:04 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
arachnophilia writes:
...guys, i'm telling you. if i ever kill somebody, i want a creationist to be my lawyer.
No you don't. Creationists do have the advantage that they can make those kinds of arguments with a straight face, but every time they go to court they lose.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2011 11:04 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by arachnophilia, posted 01-05-2011 3:53 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 10084
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 358 of 968 (599188)
01-05-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by arachnophilia
01-04-2011 11:04 PM


Re: Bump for ICANT
oh, and that smoking gun and the dna? you'll just have to ignore those, as a 99.99% match isn't exactly conclusive.
The DNA evidence is best explained by a common designer, not a common source. Obviously, the creator of my client also produced the DNA at the crime scene.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2011 11:04 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 359 of 968 (599194)
01-05-2011 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by ICANT
01-03-2011 10:34 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
You present a picture of 14 skulls and claim that is evidence of 'Macro-Evolution".
The only thing you have presented is 14 skulls that prove that a creature existed at one time that had that particular skull.
Anything else you want to conclude from that picture is your conclusion.
You present 14 lion footprints and claim that that is evidence that a lion walked that way.
The only thing you have presented is 14 footprints that prove that a creature existed at one time that left that particular footprint.
Anything else you want to conclude from those footprints is your conclusion.
---
You do present a challenge to evolution. Why weren't your ancestors eaten by lions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2011 10:34 AM ICANT has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 360 of 968 (599210)
01-05-2011 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Percy
01-05-2011 8:03 AM


Re: Bump for ICANT
Percy writes:
No you don't. Creationists do have the advantage that they can make those kinds of arguments with a straight face, but every time they go to court they lose.
yes, but if i was caught on video, seen by a bunch of eyewitnesses, and found holding the smoking gun, it'd be about the only argument that could be made.
that, and insanity. which hiring a creationist fraud as a lawyer should sufficiently demonstrate, imho.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Percy, posted 01-05-2011 8:03 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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