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Author Topic:   "...except in the case of rape or incest."
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 166 of 301 (295985)
03-16-2006 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Chiroptera
03-16-2006 2:19 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
Hey chirp:
It doesn't matter what their driven tenets where. They were Atheists, and atheism was a doctrine of soviet Communism.
The Nazis didn't have the ten commandments as a tenet of their doctrine, yet many of them where Christian.
It is off topic, but Crashfrog brought it up.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Chiroptera, posted 03-16-2006 2:19 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Chiroptera, posted 03-16-2006 2:56 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 301 (295992)
03-16-2006 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 9:55 AM


Let me clear up some things. If I know a girl who is going to get an abortion, I would try to talk her out of it, but I cant force her to do one thing or the other. I cant physically restrain her to keep from doing an abortion. She has to make that decision. Now when it comes to making abortion illegal, I am for it.
See, continuing to contradict yourself doesn't clear things up.
By voting to make abortion illegal, you are attempting to remove the choice, as surely as if you physically restrained the person.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 9:55 AM LudoRephaim has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 301 (295994)
03-16-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
03-15-2006 6:15 PM


I don't see why legality is relevant to responsibility.
If abortion is illegal then there is more responsibility to having sex.
A woman can choose to take responsibility by aborting her fetus. If that possibility is removed, then whoever removed it must take on the responsibility.
Assuming she is pregnant and then the choice is removed, I agree.
If the choice isn’t there before she is pregnant (if abortion is illegal), I don’t think it becomes the responsibility of another, non-father, citizen when she does become pregnant (because we live in a democracy and everyone is responsible for the results of the laws). She knew abortion was illegal when she decided to have sex and she should be prepared for the consequences of her actions.
When you undid my decision, you absolved me of responsibility and took it on yourself.
OK, but if it is illegal to throw a couch in the garbage, then you should be more careful when shopping for a couch knowing you won’t be able to throw it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 03-15-2006 6:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 03-16-2006 3:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 301 (295995)
03-16-2006 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by NosyNed
03-15-2006 11:15 PM


Re: not about sin
I replied to the OP is Message 62. Crashfrog didn’t respond probably because he didn’t see it and sometimes when you have unanswered messages later in the thread, you don’t get the “Replies Await” notice to messages earlier in the thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NosyNed, posted 03-15-2006 11:15 PM NosyNed has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 301 (295997)
03-16-2006 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by crashfrog
03-16-2006 2:14 PM


Did you see Message 62?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by crashfrog, posted 03-16-2006 2:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by crashfrog, posted 03-16-2006 5:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 301 (295998)
03-16-2006 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 2:33 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
quote:
It doesn't matter what their driven tenets where.
Actually it does matter if we are going to decide whether the comparison apt.
-
quote:
It is off topic, but Crashfrog brought it up.
I know. And I replied to you even though it was off-topic. That is the problem when the thread starts to derail. People may recognize that it is going off-topic, but they cannot resist disputing the points made. If you must respond, then give a quick one or two sentence rebuttal, point out that it is off-topic, and then refuse to continue in that vein. (Which I did not do myself, as you can see. *sigh* No one likes a hypocrite.)

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 2:33 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 3:01 PM Chiroptera has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 172 of 301 (295999)
03-16-2006 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by crashfrog
03-16-2006 2:14 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
BTW: If it is NUmbers 5:21-28 that you are trying to show that the Bible says it is okay to cause abortions (LOL), you might want to start with verse 11, where the context begins. It does say "Miscarry" in the TNIV, but the whole context is talking about making the woman infertile and subject to misscarraiges (if Adultrey is proved) not to abort a fetus right then so that the woman isn't suffering an unwanted pregnancy or motherhood. And remember, this is a PUNISHMENT for sin. The Hebrews where not allowed to murder (Exodus 20:13) but it does aquire the death penalty for some sins (Exodus 22:18-20, Leviticus 20:27)
Taking life is not allowed save for an exection of a person who does some particular sin, just as this "abortion" (LOL)is done not because it was okay and allowed freely, but as a punishment.
BTW: Do you think that Christians today are binded by the ceremonial laws and civil laws described in the Torah, especially this one, that you think shows that Abortion is okay? If so, see Galatians.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by crashfrog, posted 03-16-2006 2:14 PM crashfrog has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 301 (296000)
03-16-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by crashfrog
03-15-2006 6:56 PM


Re: Varmit?
if a human being takes up residence in your body against your will, seems to me you have every right to evict that person.
But you get pregnant as a result of the choices you make, when you say 'against your will' it sounds like it just happens out of nowhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by crashfrog, posted 03-15-2006 6:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 174 of 301 (296001)
03-16-2006 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Chiroptera
03-16-2006 2:56 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
Actually the comparison is apt. Crashfrog is trying to show that Christians have a tainted history (which we do) while Atheism is so loveable and innocent. If atheists killed millions, some of them brutally in the soviet gulags, it doesn't matter what their tenets are. They are Atheists. Plus atheism was a major part of Soviet doctrine.
Unless Crashfrog thinks that atheists are perfect, I think it is good to say that no matter the history or values of your faith/philosophy, not everybody in those philosophies are all good people. Basically, we are all Jackasses.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Chiroptera, posted 03-16-2006 2:56 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-16-2006 3:06 PM LudoRephaim has not replied
 Message 182 by nwr, posted 03-16-2006 3:55 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4540 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 175 of 301 (296002)
03-16-2006 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 2:30 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
quote:
Crashfrog wrote:
"Communist dictatorships are not atheist; They deified and worshipped the state"
Isn't that the "NO True Scotsman" fallacy?
You know, the Nazis deified the aryan race, does that make the majority of them atheist? Not really, since even they where religious (many where Christian).
Communist nations deified the state, but they didn't believe in a real God. does that make them deists, since they "deified" the soviet state?
Go back to my Bible? GO back to your history books! These are the same people who formed the "Militant Atheist International" that was totally against any form of God or religion. That would be apeculiar title of an organization that wans't openly Atheist.
As for your interpretation of the Bible: see Exodus 20:13. I'll bring more back in a minute.
Quote tags, man. PLEASE learn to use them.
Been here all along but too busy to participate - had a minute - here goes.
The part about Nazis is pretty disjointed and distracting, and your logic doesn't seem to make sense. Maybe you intended it that way.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing about Communists being atheist, because one has to first be clear about the label when applied to a group or government. That said:
Atheism as an official state religion doesn't make sense to begin with, because you can't practice atheism. Atheism is the absence of a god-belief. Even in the form of positive denial, it is not a religion that is practiced. Try defining the actions of an atheist as a practiced religion and you will find that most of your daily routine could be called the same because it does not require a god to be there. Crash's point, which you don't seem to be picking up, is that their central ideology is not based on atheism; rather, they suppress all religions, viewing them as threats to the power of the state. Whether the individuals participating in those activities were atheists or had their own private beliefs is difficult to determine and not especially relevant.
Back to the OP,
it seems there have been a lot of tangents in this thread. Issues that I would like to see discussed more are: a simple basis for judging abortion as a moral or immoral act, whether a universal yes/no or a set of criteria (such as the rape/incest clause spoken of); philosophically/biologically/somehow defining a human being; and in the pragmatic arena, the idea of optimizing restriction/permission of abortion to achieve the most beneficial results for a society. Do all those seem close enough to the OP to work in here at some point? The first is probably the easiest, the second a maybe, and the last may be for another thread... just looking for feedback.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 2:30 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 3:13 PM zephyr has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 301 (296003)
03-16-2006 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 3:01 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
Unless Crashfrog thinks that atheists are perfect
When you've been here longer than twenty minutes or so, you'll see that Crash does not, in fact, think this. In several years, I've never once seen him claim that atheists are incapable of doing bad things.
However, your comparison still sucks. The acts to which Crash points were done in the name of Christ. In other words, the people doing them were stating that it was because of their Christianity that they did these things.
If you can find a comparable example where the bad thing is done because of atheism, we'd all be interested to hear it.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 3:01 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 177 of 301 (296005)
03-16-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by zephyr
03-16-2006 3:03 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
Hey Zephyr Welcome to the Threshold of Hell LOL.
I would use quote tags, but I cant seem to find any on these things. I'll look for it later.
You and Crashfrog are right that the communists where not killing people in the name of atheism. But my point is that atheism is not spotless in it's history. The fact is that atheists where killing mass numbers of people during the 20th century, just as Christians have done so throughout the ages. True, we did it in the name of Christ while the atheists of communism did not do it in the name of atheism, but nevertheless both atheists and Christians have butchered and murdered people in history. Nobody is perfect.
I would try to answer the OP, but I'm too busy trading blows with people on this thread that I dont have time to Respond (LOL)
I'll try later.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by zephyr, posted 03-16-2006 3:03 PM zephyr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-16-2006 3:16 PM LudoRephaim has replied
 Message 180 by Chiroptera, posted 03-16-2006 3:25 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 301 (296007)
03-16-2006 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 3:13 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
both atheists and Christians have butchered and murdered people in history. Nobody is perfect.
Well, on behalf of all of us, thank you for answering a question nobody asked, and arguing a point nobody was contesting.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 3:13 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 3:18 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 179 of 301 (296008)
03-16-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Dan Carroll
03-16-2006 3:16 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
Thank you

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-16-2006 3:16 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 301 (296009)
03-16-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 3:13 PM


Moderators are gonna get us!
quote:
But my point is that atheism is not spotless in it's history.
Actually, Ludo, unless people have committed bad acts in the name of atheism (not necessarily explicitly), then atheism is spotless.
-
quote:
The fact is that atheists where killing mass numbers of people during the 20th century, just as Christians have done so throughout the ages.
So have dark-haired people. Dark-haired people have killed mass numbers of people in the 20th century. There is a difference between an characteristic being merely incidental, and a characteristic being either the driving force or the justification of an act.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 3:13 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

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