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Author | Topic: YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Welcome reletomp,
Glad you decided to add to our diversity. We have a wide variety of forums for your debating pleasure. Name calling is frowned upon here. Per the rules: Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics. As members, we are guests on this board and as guests we are asked to put forth our best behavior. Please read the Forum Guidelines carefully and understand the wishes of our host. Abide by the Forum Guidelines and you will be a welcome addition. In the purple signature box below, you'll find some links that will help make your journey here pleasant. Please direct any questions or comments you may have concerning this post to the Moderation Thread. Again, welcome and fruitful debating. Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encyclopedia Brittanica, on debate Links for comments on moderation procedures and/or responding to admin msgs:
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
kerusu writes: you know what would be interesting to see? A debate between Buz and a fundamentalist muslim. My bet--you two will say the exact same things, except in favor of your "chosen" god. The day before the AM of the 9/11 I was in fact member Buzboy (my username then) on Newsmax forum debating a Muslim fellow. I was debating that Islam was a violent religion and that Mohammed and his followers who wrote the Haddith and the Sunnahs advocated violence. He was claiming that it was peaceful and everyone was agreeing with him and joining in the debate, including the only moderator Wendya, me being the only one arguing my position. Of course the next day 19 devout Islam fundies in the USA from Saudi Arabia settled the argument. The Islam fellow disappeared off the radar never to return. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Hi reletomp. Clarification is needed as to just what your points are. It would be appreciated if you would put it simple in a few statements. I'm not sure what your position is by what you were trying to get across.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Modulous writes: Adam is a prophet of Islam.Noah is a prophet of Islam. Moses is a prophet of Islam. Abraham is. As is Ishmael, Isaac, Lot, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Aaron, Solomon etc etc. Indeed - basically every prophet in the Old Testament is a prophet of Islam. The problem with that is that none of the above are Biblical OT prophets perse. They were partiarcs, a priest, a king, a herdsman nomad wildman (Ishmael) and a father of all living (Adam). Narry a one was one of the official Biblical prophets and not one of the real Biblical prophets are prophets of Islam. Why? Likely because they prophesied the return of Israel to the land in the end times and the demise of Edom and the other enemies of Israel, i.e, for the most part, descendents of Ishmael and Esau.
The Old Testament was big on expansion by violence. Indeed, the two philosophies are so similar many of Mohammed's contemporaries thought he was preaching the Old Testament! I've said it many times and I see I need to repeat that The only expansion if you want to call it that was regarding the relatively little heathen idol worshipping land of Caanan which God gave his wandering people to eventually become the Messianic kingdom of Jehovah. They were never instructed to go beyond that. Thus, after the late 1967 war, lands outside of that area was not held by modern Israel when they could have done so. On the other hand Mohammed and his followers have called for total world conquest for Allah their god of Mohammed and his book and of the Haddith and Sunnahs as per his successors.
They are both modifications of the god of Judaism. They are different modifications of it, but modifications nevertheless. That means they have different properties and characteristics. However, that does not mean the Jewish god is a different god to the Christian one and it does not mean that the Islamic God is different than the Jewish one. You're bright on some things, Mod, but you've grossly deficient in your understanding of this subject. I've been in the Bible intensly for over 50 years. Believe me when I insist that Mohammed's god and Jesus's father/god are diametrically opposed. Thus you get killed for preaching Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible in Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc and if you convert to Islam and decide later you want out in such nations.
If you wish to concede the first, I'm happy to say that under those rules Allah is not the same deity as Yahweh. However, if you wish to keep Christianity as worshipping the god Yahweh, then under those same rules we have to also include Islam in Yahweh worshipping. LOL! Tell it to any Islamic Imam or Islamic fundie government leader who will likely have you killed if you worship and propagate the god YHWH/pronounced Yahweh(Hebrew)/YHWH/pronounced Jehovah(English) in their mosque or nation. To be a Muslim convert YOU MUST confess that Allah (pronounced Allah English) is god and Mohammed (not Jesus)is his prophet. Then having done that YOU MUST not change your mind under the penalty of death as per fundamentalistic Muslim doctrine. Islam is anti-christ/messiah and has been since it's inception. Thus it is anti-Biblical and not pro-Biblical. Bibles must be smuggled into most fundi theocratic Islamic nations. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1334 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
it is written every where by scholars of the bible and critiques that YHWH (Jehovah) is nothing but the blotting of the name of God, What ever was the name of God Ezra and after him the talmudists decided to blot the name out jews are forbidden for blotting out the name of god.
quote: in speech, they replace it. when writing, they replace or omit it -- specifically to avoid accidentally doing just this.
by adding few strokes on the letters and erasing some strokes ( in the Paleo Hebrew alphabet that is) "yahweh" looks like this in paleo-hebrew: here's a link to the paleo-hebrew alef-bet. please show me how anything can be turned into "yahweh" by means of addition of lines.
and guess what the name of God in the original bible in place of YHWH?? Allah. i hate to break this to you, but "allah" isn't technically a name. since i happen to know enough about semitic language, i'll break it down for you: al-ilah. ilah is the generic word for "god." al is the article "the." so the name of god is "the god?" really, that's nice. what's worse is that this title does appear in the hebrew bible, just in hebrew. quite frequently, actually. ilah in hebrew is elah. the false plural of which is elohim, the word commonly translated as "god" or "gods" in english bibles. further, the aramaic words christ speaks from the cross begin elahi or [/i]elohi[/i]. again, the same word -- "allah" was apparently quite commonly used in arabic.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7799 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
The problem with that is that none of the above are Biblical OT prophets perse. They were partiarcs, a priest, a king, a herdsman nomad wildman (Ishmael) and a father of all living (Adam). You don't consider Moses a prophet? Interesting.
Narry a one was one of the official Biblical prophets and not one of the real Biblical prophets are prophets of Islam. I'm fairly sure for example Isaiah and Daniel are official Biblical prophets and they have been also named prophets of Islam.
The only expansion if you want to call it that was regarding the relatively little heathen idol worshipping land of Caanan which God gave his wandering people to eventually become the Messianic kingdom of Jehovah. the Old Testament is a peaceful text with no mass genocide called for, no enforced slavery or anything like that. Except in one little case, when they really deserved it. I'm afraid your assertion doesn't leave me convinced Buz. The point I was making, if you had forgotten - is that the God of the Bible does not advocate total non-violence. Or rather, if he does on one hand - he advocates something else on the other hand.
You're bright on some things, Mod, but you've grossly deficient in your understanding of this subject. I've been in the Bible intensly for over 50 years. Believe me when I insist that Mohammed's god and Jesus's father/god are diametrically opposed. Thus you get killed for preaching Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible in Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc and if you convert to Islam and decide later you want out in such nation The religions are on some issues diametrically opposed, that doesn't mean the followers worship different gods. This should be plainly obvious when we look at nations that have existed where you can be killed for being a Catholic by Protestants (and vice versa). They clearly do not worship different gods - unless you honestly believe they do?
Tell it to any Islamic Imam or Islamic fundie government leader who will likely have you killed if you worship and propagate the god YHWH/pronounced Yahweh(Hebrew)/YHWH/pronounced Jehovah(English) in their mosque or nation. Like Catholics vs Protestants you may find yourself getting killed or tortured should you happen to worship god in the wrong way - I've never said differently. However, I have spoken with Imams - I suspect you haven't given what you think they would say. For your information they said that they worshipped the same god that the Christians and Jews do. Indeed - it doesn't matter what religion has power in a theocratic system, there tends to be justification for terrible acts to non-believers and Islam and Christianity share yet another similarity here. It is the secular states that threw off this legacy of violence.
To be a Muslim convert YOU MUST confess that Allah (pronounced Allah English) is god and Mohammed (not Jesus)is his prophet. False false false false false false. Some sects (the majority) ask for a declaration of "[I testify that] there is no god (ilah) but Allah, and [I testify that] Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." - but not all of them. It does not say that Jesus is not a prophet of Allah in that declaration, only that Mohammed is the messenger of Allah. Indeed - looking at the Qur'an we find Jesus is in Islam - which screws your point. Also - since "No true Christian would be violent" type reasoning is permitted. Allow me to "No true Muslim" you for a moment. The phrase "...and Mohammed is His messenger" is not something a true Muslims should say since their book does not say that (just "There is no God but Allah"), and it also says that "...the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His apostles; We make no difference between any of His apostles; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord!" Thus putting Mohammed forward as special or different goes against Allah's word.
Islam is anti-christ/messiah and has been since it's inception. They are not anti-Jesus - as the text clearly shows.They are not anti-Messiah (like the Jews they just don't believe Jesus was the Messiah). Messianic concepts, as far as I can tell are neither put forward as true, nor thrown down as false. Thus it is anti-Biblical and not pro-Biblical. Bibles must be smuggled into most fundi theocratic Islamic nations. Right - theocratic nations ban books under pain of death or flogging. Islam is not unique in this regard. If you think theocracies are the perfect representation of religions, should we examine Christian theocracies for their tolerance and benevolence? We could even compare with a Buddhist theocracy just for fun. Theocracies don't hold up well. What's the lesson here? I'd say that fundamentalists are violent and dangerous zealots who should be shown for what they are. Now, let's forget about theocracies and look at the books that claim to contain the tenets of the religion. And horror of horrors, the Qur'an points to biblical scripture as containing truths. Who'd have thought that tyrants could cynically manipulate a religion for temporal power.
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SAMBEE Junior Member (Idle past 5848 days) Posts: 18 From: Alabama Joined: |
Shalom,it is a well known fact that Allah is a pagan deity that was worshiped by ishmael and his mother they were not hebrews.This is why ishmael was cast out he would not worship the true elohim Yahweh this is why the promise was given to isaac a hebrew.Here is a link that shows who and what Allah really is.
Sambee... ALLAH, the Moon God
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
it is a well known fact that.... If that were the case, then I would think you wouldn't have to repeat it here since we would already know it. Well known to whom, exactly? To the nutcakes who think that Jack Chick has anything sensible to say? If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey. Haven't you always wanted a monkey? -- The Barenaked Ladies
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SAMBEE Junior Member (Idle past 5848 days) Posts: 18 From: Alabama Joined: |
Shalom,Chiroptera here are the facts on Allah and some of the teachings of the Koran.Instead of silly remarks read the information then we can debate both sides.
Sambee... First link [Allah] http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/skm30804.htm Second link[Koran] http://www.bible.ca/.../islam-koran-fairy-tales-dr-morey.htm "Seeing you have not been giving the facts read them" Edited by SAMBEE, : No reason given.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4949 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
ishmael and his mother they were not hebrews.This is why ishmael was cast out he would not worship the true elohim Yahweh this is why the promise was given to isaac a hebrew Ishmael and Isaac had the same father, so how can one be a Hebrew and the other not? Also, why did Ishmael keep his Hebrew name if he wasn't a Hebrew?
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SAMBEE Junior Member (Idle past 5848 days) Posts: 18 From: Alabama Joined: |
Shalom,Brian Ishmael was half hebrew his mother was an egyptian,what I typed should have read ishmael was half hebrew and his mother was not hebrew.Ishmael was named by Yahweh{Gen 16:11} the name ishmael means may elohim hear.Yahweh heard the cry of Hagar in the desert and thus the child is named ishmael.
Sambee...
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Your second link, bible.ca, is pretty much anti-evolution. That pretty much destroys its credibility as a source of information; it's clearly a site devoted to some evangelical religious cause, and its creators obviously let their religious biases determine what they are going to believe.
The first link is a site that is obvious a extreme anti-Islam site, and, in fact, they don't present any information that I can verify. This is the problem with trying to state your case by simply posting links. You haven't established the credibility of your websites, so posting the links aren't all that useful. What evidence and arguments to you have to advance your claims? On what sources, preferably in the academic primary literature (or at least sites that reference the academic literature) are you basing your claims? I mean, surely you wouldn't trust a pro-Islam site that disputed your claims, would you? Why should anyone else trust sites that are clearly anti-Islam? If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey. Haven't you always wanted a monkey? -- The Barenaked Ladies
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Modulous Member Posts: 7799 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Hi SAMBEE,
Another interesting thread, that deals with many of the same sources you have presented might be worth a read. Does Allah = Moon God? Like with Christianity, pagan practices were coopted to help convert other pagans. That is about all the evidence really shows. If a person worships a deity called Allah, and engages in rituals that have pagan origin - does that mean they are worshipping a pagan deity? If so, Arabic Christians are also worshipping a pagan deity. Indeed, just look at those things which God is referred to as in other languages. In Finnish they call him Jumala - a sky god, the Japanese call him Kami, a shinto word for spirit. In the Philippines Christians worship, Bathala - a pagan god. All around us we see the Abrahamic god be given names coopted from pagan origins. There was another pagan God, called Sin. He, like the others above, was something of a supreme god and was given the title 'the god'. Or, in their language, 'Allah'. When Mohammed wanted to convert them to his variant of the Abrahamic faiths, he kept the word everyone was familiar with to refer to 'the god'. It worked with the Finns, it worked with the Chinese too. And, as we can see, it worked with the Arabs. To be honest, what else could they say to refer to the monotheistic deity but 'the god'? Check out the other thread, you might pick up something you think is worth exploring further.
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SAMBEE Junior Member (Idle past 5848 days) Posts: 18 From: Alabama Joined: |
Shalom,here is a link that exposes the falsehood of the name Jehovah,I will be doing a study on all names and titles listed on this topic.
Sambee... Domain Names, Web Hosting and Online Marketing Services | Network Solutions
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SAMBEE Junior Member (Idle past 5848 days) Posts: 18 From: Alabama Joined: |
Shalom,Modulous I fully agree with your post I will check out the other thresds thanks.
Sambee...
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