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Author Topic:   The location of the Tree of Life
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 46 of 302 (215661)
06-09-2005 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by riVeRraT
06-09-2005 9:10 AM


Re: the god of genesis
I guess we can relate to that, since we were created in his image.
well, i think the argument is actually the reverse: in genesis, we've created HIM in OUR image.
Do we even know who wrote Genisis?
specifically? no. but at least three sources. the latest of which dates to probably just after 600 bc.
Was it a dream, a vision. How did it survive the flood, in Noah's mind?
wasn't around then. these are stories about events that, according to the traditional mythology, happened in the past. genesis is a collection of that traditional mythology.
it's sort of like asking how the iliad and the odyssey survived the trojan war. these stories weren't written until AFTER the events. not during.
How can it possibly be a literal translation of what happened? Especially since there are so many versions of it today. Is that the devil trying to confuse us?
no, it's just simply a book, that contains a collection of books, which are themselves a collections of other things. for instance, take the book of psalms. we have it as PART of our one big book, but it's really it's own book. within that book, there's actually five separate books of psalms. and within those, each psalm is a work in an of itself.
it's just a little less obvious with the other books. but most of them work that way. throw a long and complicated history on to it, and you've got a big confusing mess. but i think it's our duty as christians to try to figure out how to make sense of what's there. acknowledging it for what it is, how and when it was written, instead of just worshipping it in bibolatry.
But I believe in the moral of the story which is where I find God's word.
agreed. usually. sometimes i'm not so sure. for instance, what's the moral of the story about dinah's rape?
he moral of the story is not God is a cooky mind changer, but that we keep trying to be like him, but we can't.
i think the further extrapolated moral is that one day we will be.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2005 9:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2005 5:09 AM arachnophilia has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 47 of 302 (215753)
06-09-2005 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by zephyr
06-09-2005 10:31 AM


Re: explanation for everything?
However, if you take the god out of the equation, the inability of humans to agree on what he is like and how he acts becomes perfectly reasonable.
That happens all the time, but does not stop God's word from reaching us through the bible. If you are interpreting the bible wrong, and missing the moral of the story for which it was written, things can appear that way also.
The good book, mostly the NT, seems to declare both paradoxes to be completely true,
Can you show me where the NT says we are saved by works?
It guarantees you a social support structure
I dont really accept that. It doesn't explain good and bad either.
When I stop listening to faith-based assertions long enough, and accept that this is the only life I will ever have, I actually find peace for the first time, and am filled with the desire to live well
That’s your choice, and I am happy for your choice. It is where you need to be. It doesn't mean there is or is not a God. My belief doesn't prove a thing either.
But it sounds like you were in a prison, and then set free. Probably because in your heart you knew it wasn't God, whatever it was that was being taught to you. You see, God puts his laws on the minds and hearts of everyone. When things go against his law, you automatically know it. This does not stop people from choosing good or bad. We as humans can be deceived into thinking that one or the other is better for us. But sooner or later the truth comes through. I feel you knew what it was that you were exposed to wasn't truth, so you set yourself free. I feel God created you with a purpose, and that purpose was not being meet, so you had to break free. Now you want to accomplish that purpose, without exploiting others (good stuff). It would be so much better if you knew God, and did it for his glory. God knows what he created you for, and when you come in line with that purpose, and do it for him, there is true fulfillment.
This is just my opinion, I mean it in a good way. I don't want to offend you.
A cop-out to which he resorts when his reasoning fails.
Lol. so you don't have an explanation either. Don't worry, neither do I.
But they, with the gospels, are supposedly our best sources of knowledge about his life and teachings. I agree with what you say about them and that is why I put no stock in Christianity any more.
Well, I wouldn't blame them for anything either. Paul constantly humbles himself, and says how is not worthy. At one point I tried to be "sin-free" and I too realized how hard it is, and I do feel not-worthy, but I don't feel any less of myself. I am who I am, and that’s the way God made me. I will just go through life and learn along the way trying my best.
Their writings are an inspiration and they were led by the Holy Spirit. I feel as though I am led by the Spirit, and have close encounters with the Spirit all the time(we all have the Spirit inside of us). That led me to a better understanding of what they wrote, where as before I had that experience, it didn't make much sense. It is the best writing we have to help guide us to the Holy Spirit, and a personal relationship with Jesus. Until you understand what the Holy Spirit is in its fullness, then I wouldn't give up on it yet. Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit, and he delivers.
It's not easy for them to describe it to us, and it is not easy for me to describe it to you. I think that is why you must seek it yourself.
Says you. I do it all the time and it feels absolutely marvelous. I used to do good for the sake of Jesus, or at least try to, and it felt like grinding through a homework assignment. I'll chalk it up to different personalities. If it works for you, by no means would I ask you to change. Just realize that for me and many other people, doing good for no reason at all is much more fulfilling.
Sure, I understand that perfectly. I always have done good for good, and one time I did it for Jesus, but I really didn't know him at the time, and I felt angry about doing it, because none of it made any sense. I used to get angry just to sit in a church.
But now after experiencing the Holy Spirit, things are different. My understanding of it (life and God), through the wisdom and knowledge that the Holy Spirit gives me, has now opened my eyes to a different way of thinking. The verse in John explains it well:
John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
The Holy Spirit is truth, the truth lives inside you, that is why you knew what you were experiencing was a lie. Or that’s what I think.
Well, the reason this thread exists is because a lot of people make some very dramatic claims based on the story - its literal, accurate, truth. If such things can't be defended, what good is it? Modulous started a thread to ask about specific details (though we're getting a bit off the core question, it's still the same issue). I'm interested because his provocative questions seem to highlight weaknesses in the story. I think your approach is reasonable but I'm not sure it adds much in the way of debate.
Thank you. But there is a lesson to be learned here. Here's how I see it. Jesus constantly tells us how very few people will get into heaven. Why this is, is beyond my judgment. But it is clear that if a religion or a group of people are to take a literal translation, and miss the moral of the story, then what purpose does it serve? Then for them to judge you, and tell you, that your not going to heaven because you don't believe in it, is a bunch of crap.
Judge not, or be judged
Love others like yourself
on and on.....
So we are going to sit here and judge that story, or the people who wrote it, or God himself? I don't think we can ever find God that way, and that makes us no better than some of bad people in the OT
We can sit and pick apart every bible verse, verse by verse, the bible allows you to do that. That is the beauty of the bible, you can go back and read it, and it will mean something different every time. Most of the time, when seeking God, the bible will tell you exactly what you need to know. The bible even picks itself apart:
Ecclesiastes 1
Everything Is Meaningless
1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!"
says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."
3 What does man gain from all his labor
at which he toils under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
"Look! This is something new"?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
and even those who are yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by zephyr, posted 06-09-2005 10:31 AM zephyr has not replied

Philip
Member (Idle past 4713 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 48 of 302 (215761)
06-09-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
06-07-2005 12:25 PM


Tree of Life and Predestination
Tree of Life
My personal view: The Tree of Life was taken away at Eden (and during this present distress). It will reappear (as per Revelation 21) in a terribly glorious and perfected paradise, the celestial city (if you will).
Of course the present universe will be discarded for a new heaven and earth
It will bear 12 manner of fruits (as per Revelation 21), and in a monthly manner, although there will no more sun nor moon, to mark those months. The Lamb is the light thereof.
Its fruit will be used for the healing of the nations. Those peoples may even require that medicine, even in their resurrected state.
I speculate that the fruit is not the fruit of mortals anymore.

Why God changes His mind throughout scriptures is undoubtedly for man’s benefit. It is not for you (persons) to know the times and seasons (etc.) but the Father only.
Some things are hidden within the Godhead (apparently a trinity) itself. The Lord repents (changes) but the Godhead never changes. Predestination is uncompromised.
Christ thrice cried to his Father: If it be possible, take this cup away from me (i.e., the cup of our damnation). So while Christ is tasting death for every man His Father predestined the whole thing.
Do scriptures ever state that the Father repented? Methinks, the Lord (Jehovah) is not the fullness of the Godhead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 06-07-2005 12:25 PM Modulous has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 49 of 302 (215806)
06-10-2005 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
06-09-2005 11:12 AM


Re: the god of genesis
1. He planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and told them they shouldn't eat of it or they would die, the same day. When they did eat of it, He changed his mind and didn't kill them for hundreds of years.
It can be said that they did die that day, they died a spiritual death, for which all of mankind still pays for. Its funny how well that story fits into life. Not only are our spirits dead when we are born, but we pay for the sins of our fathers.
2. He planted the Tree of Life, with no warnings at all about the consequences.
But he did warn them. Plus does the story have to include every minute detail, or does only need to contain enough information for us to understand its moral? I believe the bible omits several details along the way. It would have to be 1000 times larger for it to have all the details, but that is not what the book is for. The story wasn't written for you not to believe in God, but so that you may believe in God, and find his word.
Unless you make up a lot of stuff that isn't there, Genesis clearly pictures a God who couldn't make up His mind.
That is the way you see it, at this point in time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 06-09-2005 11:12 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 06-10-2005 11:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 50 of 302 (215807)
06-10-2005 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by arachnophilia
06-09-2005 2:19 PM


Re: the god of genesis
I guess we can relate to that, since we were created in his image.
well, i think the argument is actually the reverse: in genesis, we've created HIM in OUR image.
Awesome, the bible is so versatile. No other book can be taken so many ways, that alone is a testimony to its greatness.
it's sort of like asking how the iliad and the odyssey survived the trojan war. these stories weren't written until AFTER the events. not during.
Thats my point. But I do believe that it's moral is preserved.
it's just a little less obvious with the other books. but most of them work that way. throw a long and complicated history on to it, and you've got a big confusing mess. but i think it's our duty as christians to try to figure out how to make sense of what's there. acknowledging it for what it is, how and when it was written, instead of just worshipping it in it's just a little less obvious with the other books. but most of them work that way. throw a long and complicated history on to it, and you've got a big confusing mess. but i think it's our duty as christians to try to figure out how to make sense of what's there. acknowledging it for what it is, how and when it was written, instead of just worshipping it in bibolatry.
66 books to be exact. Bibliolatry I am not guilty of. I agree with you.
agreed. usually. sometimes i'm not so sure. for instance, what's the moral of the story about dinah's rape?
What an unbelievable story! There are so many morals in that story, that still relate to today. It was so long ago, and difficult for us to understand. Again a lot of detail is left out, but a basic story line is there, so that we can get a glimpse of what went on. It's too long to discuss here, but deserves its own thread. But it shows how to treat women (if anyone says that we are supposed to rape women, I will reach through my computer, and choke them), screw up of man, another mans faithfulness to God, battle between tribes. Its a love story, and story of battle, and a story of faithfulness to God, and God's forgiveness to man.
i think the further extrapolated moral is that one day we will be.
We are gods, with a little "g". He is the Lord of lords, King of kings. We are rulers of the earth, and have high places in heaven waiting for us. Even the Angels will serve us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by arachnophilia, posted 06-09-2005 2:19 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by arachnophilia, posted 06-10-2005 6:05 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 188 by lfen, posted 06-18-2005 2:24 PM riVeRraT has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 51 of 302 (215811)
06-10-2005 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by riVeRraT
06-10-2005 5:09 AM


Re: the god of genesis
Awesome, the bible is so versatile. No other book can be taken so many ways, that alone is a testimony to its greatness.
nah, i've read a lot of stuff that can be taken very many ways. they say all good art is somewhat vague, so that each viewer, reader, or listener can take it to mean something different.
one of my favourite bands, actually, has a lot of debate over the meaning to their lyrics.
What an unbelievable story! There are so many morals in that story, that still relate to today. It was so long ago, and difficult for us to understand. Again a lot of detail is left out, but a basic story line is there, so that we can get a glimpse of what went on. It's too long to discuss here, but deserves its own thread. But it shows how to treat women (if anyone says that we are supposed to rape women, I will reach through my computer, and choke them), screw up of man, another mans faithfulness to God, battle between tribes. Its a love story, and story of battle, and a story of faithfulness to God, and God's forgiveness to man.
there was a thread way back about the morality of genesis. it never got off the ground.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2005 5:09 AM riVeRraT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 302 (215878)
06-10-2005 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
06-10-2005 4:48 AM


Re: the god of genesis
riVeRraT writes:
It can be said that they did die that day, they died a spiritual death, for which all of mankind still pays for.
That's a rationalization. You reason, "God is X. X wouldn't do Y. Therefore God didn't do Y." Yet the Bible is pretty clear that God did did do Y - i.e. He lied, or changed his mind about Adam and Eve dying that same day.
Your error in logic is the premise "God is X". You're assuming that God can't lie or change His mind. The Bible is pretty clear that He can and does.
You are thinking of God as you wish He was, not as He was described in Genesis.
But he did warn them.
Where did God warn Adam and Eve that they would be kicked out of the garden and denied acces to the Tree of Life? Chapter and Verse?
...does the story have to include every minute detail, or does only need to contain enough information for us to understand its moral?
So which is it? Does the Bible include that detail or doesn't it?
It is important to include a detail like a warning, if you don't want the reader to think that God changed His mind. From the details that we have, the conclusion is that God changed His mind (or wasn't being honest in the first place). To come to any other conclusion, you have to make up your own details.
The story wasn't written for you not to believe in God, but so that you may believe in God, and find his word.
I don't follow that. Was the story written to make me believe in God? Or do I have to believe first to find His word?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2005 4:48 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by arachnophilia, posted 06-10-2005 5:20 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 54 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2005 8:04 PM ringo has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 53 of 302 (215978)
06-10-2005 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
06-10-2005 11:52 AM


Re: the god of genesis
Your error in logic is the premise "God is X". You're assuming that God can't lie or change His mind. The Bible is pretty clear that He can and does.
at least in genesis. thus the title of this particular sub-thread.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 06-10-2005 11:52 AM ringo has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 54 of 302 (216012)
06-10-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
06-10-2005 11:52 AM


Re: the god of genesis
You're assuming that God can't lie or change His mind.
Your assuming that God didn't already know. Your assuming he changed his mind, when in actuallity, he may have did it that way on purpose. Your also assuming you know what God is up to, and you know exactly what those words in Genisis means.
I am not assuming anything. I am expressing what I think it might mean. They very well could have died a spiritual death that day.
We can be dead spiritually, here are some references:
1 Timothy 5
6But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.
2 Peter 1
19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Luke 1:79
79to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace."
John 5:24-26
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus was granted life, because he was dead, without it, as it is for us, as Adam and Eve died that day, a spiritual death, just like God said they would.
Where did God warn Adam and Eve that they would be kicked out of the garden and denied acces to the Tree of Life? Chapter and Verse?
Telling someone they will die, would pretty much mean to me that there would be no more garden (even if they didn't understand the kind of death God was talking about). Why does such a smart person such as yourself need to be explained this, and why would you require a verse with those exact words. Does it mean there is no God, because there is no bible verse explaining this to you?
I would also say that the death God speaks of is mans ability to die, not that he would be dead the second he ate it. Sin brings about death, and we die, even after suffering through life here on earth.
Or it's a combination of the 2 thoughts.
Spiritual death, and physical death.
edit to add something
The story wasn't written for you not to believe in God, but so that you may believe in God, and find his word.
I don't follow that. Was the story written to make me believe in God? Or do I have to believe first to find His word?
I can't answer that for you. You have to find it yourself, in your own way, that satisfies you. A way that answers your questions. No-one should be trying to "make" you believe in God, but tell you things you might need to know, to make a more educated decsion whether God exists for you or not.
If someone explains Genesis to you, who does not know God, or understand him, or is not led by the Holy Spirit, or their intension is to prove to you that there is no God, then it will be tougher for you to find the truth. "If God exists".
The bible can mean a multitude of things, and if it is explained wrong to you over the course of years, it will take double that to reverse it, to find the truth.
"If there is a devil" then this is where he wants you to be, in a state of confusion. Then its status quo, and you are free to move about the cabin.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-10-2005 08:13 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 06-10-2005 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 06-11-2005 12:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 55 of 302 (216052)
06-11-2005 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by riVeRraT
06-10-2005 8:04 PM


Re: the god of genesis
riVeRraT writes:
Your assuming that God didn't already know. Your assuming he changed his mind, when in actuallity, he may have did it that way on purpose.
All I'm assuming is that Genesis means what it says.
God told Adam and Eve that they would die "the same day". They didn't. (I'm not going to get into the whole business of "spiritual death". That's another topic.)
If He "did it that way on purpose", He was lying.
Now, I have no problem with God lying in the story. I have no problem with Him changing His mind either. If you have a problem with it, you can speculate all you want about what Genesis means, but don't pretend that your speculations are what Genesis actually says.
Telling someone they will die, would pretty much mean to me that there would be no more garden (even if they didn't understand the kind of death God was talking about).
You claimed that God warned Adam and Eve about the Tree of Life. I asked you where that warning is. Genesis 2 and 3 are not such long chapters. If there is a warning in there, you should be able to point it out instead of beating around the bush.
Telling them that they will die if they eat of one tree is not the same as warning them about the other tree, especially if they were only going to die a spiritual death. Or was it really the Tree of Spiritual Life?
Why would God talk about it to them at all if He wasn't going to make it clear to them what He meant?
The story wasn't written for you not to believe in God, but so that you may believe in God, and find his word.
I asked you a simple question, and all you did was beat around the bush again. Let me try again, in multiple choice form:
What did you mean by that quote?
1. Was the story written so that I would believe in God?
or
2. Do I have to believe in God before I can understand the story?
Never mind speculating about whether or not the Holy Spirit has explained Genesis to me. If you really understand Genesis, your answers should be clear.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2005 8:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2005 5:04 AM ringo has replied
 Message 58 by riVeRraT, posted 06-11-2005 2:20 PM ringo has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 56 of 302 (216093)
06-11-2005 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
06-11-2005 12:30 AM


Re: the god of genesis
God told Adam and Eve that they would die "the same day".
not exactly. "in the day" is a hebrew idiom that means "when." so the statement is cause and effect: when adam eats of the tree of life, he will die.
god makes sure to emphasize death by repeating it (rendered in english as "surely die" in most translation). basically, he's telling adam that fruit is posionous. or maybe threatening to kill adam himself. but god most certainly meant physical death. no other kind is mentioned.
Now, I have no problem with God lying in the story. I have no problem with Him changing His mind either.
i'm thinking now it was more of an exagerated thread. like we tell our kids. "don't do that, or i'll kill you." when our parents told us things that were similar, we didn't usually expect to actually die as a result.
and that's what the serpent tell eve. "oh, god's not ACTUALLY going to kill you." eve seems to agree with that assessment.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 06-11-2005 12:30 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 06-11-2005 12:00 PM arachnophilia has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 57 of 302 (216148)
06-11-2005 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by arachnophilia
06-11-2005 5:04 AM


Re: the god of genesis
arachnophilia writes:
i'm thinking now it was more of an exagerated thread. like we tell our kids. "don't do that, or i'll kill you." when our parents told us things that were similar, we didn't usually expect to actually die as a result.
I like that idea. Genesis (the early part, at least) portrays God in very human terms. We were created in His image, after all. The idea that He shares some of our flaws brings us closer to Him.
As the Bible progresses we seem to get farther and farther from God. In fact, it takes God's incarnation as a man to bring us together again.
But did we "Fall" or did God rise in our estimation? To me, a God who grows, who "improves with age", is a more uplifting idea than a static God.
(We now return you to your regularly scheduled program....)

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by arachnophilia, posted 06-11-2005 5:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by riVeRraT, posted 06-11-2005 2:24 PM ringo has replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 58 of 302 (216181)
06-11-2005 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
06-11-2005 12:30 AM


Re: the god of genesis
God told Adam and Eve that they would die "the same day".
Um no it doesn't, and your not doing a very good job of taking the bible literally.
Now, I have no problem with God lying in the story. I have no problem with Him changing His mind either. If you have a problem with it, you can speculate all you want about what Genesis means, but don't pretend that your speculations are what Genesis actually says.
Um, have you been reading what I have been saying, or are you just blowing smoke at me because I love God?
Or was it really the Tree of Spiritual Life?
Maybe if you discover your spiritual life, you will understand.
Don't you get it, they died a spiritual death, and they could get it back by eating from the tree of life, spiritual life. Or maybe even immortal life, human on earth. It had to be guarded. It's a metaphore. Just like Jesus's death, was a metaphore that if we believe in him, we can have the fruit from the tree of life, and live. Read the bible, there are many references to what I am talking about. You have to start thinking spiritually, its a spiritual book, not a do it yourself fix it guide for your 74 pinto.
1. Was the story written so that I would believe in God?
or
2. Do I have to believe in God before I can understand the story?
Both. It is not necessary to believe in God to understand the story, or is it needed to find God, but it may help some people find God.
I thought my answer was clear in telling you, that I do not know what it takes for you to believe in God, your journey is your own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 06-11-2005 12:30 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 06-11-2005 2:45 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 406 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 59 of 302 (216183)
06-11-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
06-11-2005 12:00 PM


Re: the god of genesis
But did we "Fall" or did God rise in our estimation? To me, a God who grows, who "improves with age", is a more uplifting idea than a static God.
Your own......personal......Jesus......
Does God even exist in a demension where there is time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 06-11-2005 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 06-11-2005 2:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 302 (216187)
06-11-2005 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by riVeRraT
06-11-2005 2:20 PM


Re: the god of genesis
Ringo316 writes:
God told Adam and Eve that they would die "the same day".
riVeRraT writes:
Um no it doesn't, and your not doing a very good job of taking the bible literally.
Okaayyy... I'm just going by this:
Genesis 2:16-17 writes:
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What part of that am I not taking literally enough?
... they died a spiritual death, and they could get it back by eating from the tree of life, spiritual life. Or maybe even immortal life, human on earth. It had to be guarded.
I'll leave out the "spiritual death", since it's off-topic and unscriptural.
But what was the point of the Tree of Life being there in the first place? You claim it was needed to get back their spiritual and/or physical life. But God wouldn't let them do that. He had the tree gaurded to prevent that. So why was the tree there at all?
Read the bible, there are many references to what I am talking about.
That's what the self-styled "literalists" always say, yet I am the one quoting the Bible.
For the benefit of our friends who don't read the Bible, how about giving us those references?
Maybe if you discover your spiritual life, you will understand.
You don't know anything about my spiritual life, so that comment is uncalled for. If your understanding is greater than mine, then show it in this debate.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by riVeRraT, posted 06-11-2005 2:20 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 06-11-2005 4:37 PM ringo has replied
 Message 73 by riVeRraT, posted 06-11-2005 8:29 PM ringo has replied
 Message 91 by arachnophilia, posted 06-12-2005 6:27 AM ringo has not replied

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