Frozen Tropical Animals

Is it? Man, I really need to stay away from birds - it's like my kryptonite on this forum.

The numbers of raptors were badly hit by DDT, but they have been recovering quite well in more recent years. Pigeon fanciers over here have been complaining that there are too many peregrines around - blaming them for the loss of racing pigeons.[Added in edit]
Looking around on the web it seems that peregrines are locally extinct in many parts of the U.S. where they used to live. In this case part of the problem with birds is that because they fly they are often widely distributed. In the case of Peregrines that is literally worldwide ("every continent except Antarctica, says one source).[This message has been edited by PaulK, 06-19-2003]

I think if humans and dinos co-existed then we should find signs of not just human remains, but signs of human activity on the same level as dinos.Maybe some tools or other artefacts, but we got nothing.Another weird thing, if the flood was 4400 years ago as the bible claims then there would only be about 10 people to build the great pyramid of Cheops ! lol and all those other ancient civilisations of course.

I was going to email the guy on the link, guess what, he is begging for money on the email address page ! lol Probably needs money to pay his Harvard University expenses.He also says I was under the impression that angelfire.com is a free web site, does this mean he spent thousands on research lol.These people get more whacko by the minute. How can he seriously claim an ice age 4400 years ago? The poor Egyptians must have been caught in that too, not to mention the entire population of the third ming dynasty!

Brian Johnston writes:

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Another weird thing, if the flood was 4400 years ago as the bible claims then there would only be about 10 people to build the great pyramid of Cheops !

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No, the Great Pyramid was completed centuries before the flood (the Pyramid of Khufu about 2600 BCE while the flood was about 2250 BCE if we accept the chronology of the Bible.)There would have been plenty of people around to build the Great Pyramid.However...it should have extensive flood damage and it doesn't. Seems like it's been in a desert for the past 4600 years....------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

You're forgettign Flood Geology - according to Flood Geology the pyramid should be deeply buried in rock. Except that it couldn't be built because the stone it is made from is a product of the Flood.

Remember now, we're waiting for something about tropical animals in the Arctic ice... will Buzsaw please oblige us?The Rock Hound------------------
"Science constantly poses questions, where religion can only shout about answers."

My thinking on this comes mostly from the Bible. I look at modern reptiles and consider the curse of the serpent.1. The text says the curse would transform the "serpent" into another type of serpent which would be a belly crawler.
2. The text also says the serpents were more intelligent than the other animals.
3. It makes sense that the originals were legged creatures with some resemblence of what their cursed offspring would would become.
4. Likely the cursed creature would become smaller and less intelligent.
5. If you take, for example a barosaurus and remove his legs, shrink him down and eliminate the fat portion of his body, about all you have left is a snake reptile.
6. Again, you take some of them shaped like the certaosaurus, diminish him and shorten the legs with a little modification and you have a komoto dragon, crocodile or and alligator.
7. Both the dino and the modern creature lays eggs, unusual for animals.
8. Both have web type feet.
9. Many of both were amphibious.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 06-20-2003]

ROFLMAO, and you have the cheek to laugh at evolution !How long did it take for these changes to happen, or were they instantaneous?Brian.

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4. Likely the cursed creature would become smaller and less intelligent.
5. If you take, for example a barosaurus and remove his legs, shrink him down and eliminate the fat portion of his body, about all you have left is a snake reptile.
6. Again, you take some of them shaped like the certaosaurus, diminish him and shorten the legs with a little modification and you have a komoto dragon, crocodile or and alligator.

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POOF! MAgic is GREAT, isn't it Buz?You can imagine any kind of scenario and with your magic God-wand, and POOF! You can make anything possible!Whatever.Anyway, what about your dating method claims. I seem to recall that you said that they were ALL bogus, and I seem to remember asking you to explain how they were.Why don't you start with Potassium/Argon?

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I've not only read and studied the Bible, I've taught Genesis and Matthew in Bible study classes. I own maybe ten Bibles, and many more if you count the CD set I have which includes all the common translations. My questions are about your particular interpretations of certain Biblical passages, and about your general philosophy of prophecy interpretation.

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With all due respect, for the good of your students I hope you did a better job on understanding these books than you've demonstrated for the book of Amos here.

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This is perhaps worth exploring a little. Scientists everywhere around the globe of many different nationalities, cultures and religions share the same views on physics, geology, biology and cosmology. What do you believe they have in common ideologically that leads them to the same misinterpretations of evidence?

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Either very liberal view on Biblical interpretation, or little regard for it's credibility.

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As I already explained the first time I suggested you do some reading, I'm not asking you to accept the interpretations and conclusions but just to become aware of the available evidence. In that way you can stop presenting proposals that contradict that evidence.

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You see how little time I have for this activity. I just don't have time for much reading. I pick up quite a lot from the web now.

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Both proposals are inconsistent with known evidence. For item 1, not only is there no evidence for the flood, according to the Bible the flood was about 5,000 years ago, while the end of the last ice age was more than 10,000 years ago, so we already know there could have been no major post-flood glaciation episodes.

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But my statement was based on my time frame, not yours. Didn't you understand it would be so when you asked? There would have been substantial glacer movement, especially early post flood.

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If Creation Science is truly science then it can't look at a valley full of evidence of glaciers and simply declare, "A flood caused this." It must first show how the glaciation evidence is mistaken or misinterpreted, then it must produce positive evidence of a flood.

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.....Or it must interpret according to the flood timeframe and recognize as I have stated that there was considerable glacial movement after the flood which I believe it does for the most part.

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The Answers In Genesis website has a webpage titled Arguments we think creationists should NOT use. Carl Baugh is included in the list. About him they say:

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The Answers In Genesis website has a webpage titled Arguments we think creationists should NOT use. Carl Baugh is included in the list. About him they say:

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Sorry to say, AiG thinks that he?s well meaning but that he unfortunately uses a lot of material that is not sound scientifically.

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That's their perogative. Others would not agree with their opinion of him and his good work.You all would date the coal the artifacts are incased in as billions of years older than the artifact in it. That's your big problem. What is your explanation for this?

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But since we're doing science, can you cite any evidence supporting your opinion?

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I've heard and read about the problems with these, but not able to rattle it off to you. I'd have to refresh up on it all. It's not all that simple to explain and imo, too much of another topic.But this scenario is inconsistent with the evidence.

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We know that dinosaurs lived long ago, becoming extinct about 65 million years ago. The age evidence comes from multiple dating methods, including both radiometric and geological.

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There's no way anybody can factor in all that has gone over the dam in all these eons of ages. That's just liberal lackademic allegation, imo.

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Snakes and dinosaurs coexisted for about 40 million years through many, many geological layers. Your postulated scenario requires the dinosaurs who laid the eggs which bore snakes to live millions of years afterward, an impossibility in itself, and to show a rapidly declining population since no new dinosaurs are being born, only snakes.

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You're not being fair, Percy. You're making my statements look foolish by framing my statements in your timeframes and not the timeframe I had in mind when I made the statements. As you well know, I consider your timeframes as bogus as you consider Carl Baugh's artifacts and both are scientists who interpret what is observed honestly according to their views.

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Plus you have to explain how our current understanding of snake evolution is wrong. Plus you invoke a miracle, which lies outside the realm of any Creation Science that could be presented in science classrooms.

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.......And, of course, you have the task of proving my understanding of the supernatural transformation of the long legged into the shortie false, don't you? For to do that, you've gotta prove God (Jehovah that is) doesn't exist. (Btw, for the record I'm not a so called Jehovahs Witness) I often designate which god I refer to as there's so many gods emerging on the western scene nowadays.}

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Morphologically snakes and dinosaurs bear little similarity. Snakes are not dinosaurs which have lost their legs.

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Snakes are in the reptilian order Squamata, while dinosaurs were in two different reptilian orders, Saurischia and Ornithischia. These two orders are very different morphologically, and if all dinosaurs had become snakes then there would be two orders of snakes, not one.
It is indeed interesting and very unusual that a whole species of animals should become extinct...

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1. I didn't say they lost their legs, though some were transformed to be legless. I used the term, "belly crawlers."
2. There was likely such a transormation in this cursing that modern scientists would naturally consider them to be different orders. They would acturally have become a new order of beast in the process.

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This isn't unusual at all. Species go extinct all the time.

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I'm sure you understood that what I was referring to was an "order" and not a species, though I used the wrong wording. How many orders have gone extinct in the animal world?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message is a reply to:
Message 9 by buzsaw, posted 06-18-2003 11:33 PM[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 06-20-2003]

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POOF! MAgic is GREAT, isn't it Buz?

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You can imagine any kind of scenario and with your magic God-wand, and POOF! You can make anything possible!

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Whatever.

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Genesis 3:14 plainly states the serpent's curse was to become a belly crawler. The curse was a supernatural phenomena effected by a supernatural god who according to the text created the animals in the first place. What would you expect me as a Biblicallist to believe from this statement?[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 06-20-2003]

Buzsaw, where is the evidence for tropical animals frozen in Arctic ice?This is the third time I have asked this question. Failure to answer this time would reflect very poorly on your credibility.

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Genesis 3:14 plainly states the serpent's curse was to become a belly crawler. The curse was a supernatural phenomena effected by a supernatural god who according to the text created the animals in the first place. What would you expect me as a Biblicallist to believe from this statement?

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You can't have it both ways, Buz.You can't say you are being scientific in one breath and in the very next invoke magic to make your scenario possible.If all you are going to do is wave your magic God-wand every time your story needs to circumvent all known physics, biology, geology, or logic, then what you claim about the evidence or "scientificness" of your proposed scenarios is nullified.You can't change the tenets and rules of scientific inquiry whenever they become inconvenient for your scenario and still call what you are doing scientific.Believe what you want, by all means, but do not pretend that science supports it.Since you are willing to use your magic God-wand so often anyway, why is it important that your senarios are backed scientifically, anyway?

I can't help but notice that you have failed for a second time to address my questions about your claim that all the dating methods are bogus, Buz.Can you explain in detail, please, how each of the dozen or so radiometric dating methods are bogus?Also, please explain why it is that each of these flawed methods returns the same date for the same rock tested? IOW, how are they each flawed in such a way as to return consistent results when the same sample is tested?Why not start with K/Ar, as I suggested?It wouldn't be the case that you don't know the first thing about radiometric dating, would it?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-21-2003]