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Author Topic:   Gap Theory
Fuzzawakka
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 13 (49473)
08-08-2003 7:26 PM


If the earth is so young and it was created in 7 days how is it that there are stars that we can see that are millions of light years away. That would mean that what we are seeing now is what it actually looked like millions of years ago. There have also been several supernovas and we have discovered black holes. Both supernovas and black holes take a very long time. What are your thoughts about the world being created in a longer period of time then 7 days. And if you dont believe that it took longer then days how do you explain the age of the universe?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by NosyNed, posted 08-08-2003 7:33 PM Fuzzawakka has not replied

NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 2 of 13 (49477)
08-08-2003 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Fuzzawakka
08-08-2003 7:26 PM


I'll jump in here if you don't mind.
There seem to be two ways that this is dismissed by creationists:
1) (this is obvioulsy frought with theological issues but it is still used now and then)
God made it look that way. He faked the whole thing by starting the light already part way here. He faked age by making everything look that way.
This one is obviously not something that can be considered to be creation "science" and it's pretty bad theology as well.
2) The speed of light is not a constant.
There is, of course, no evidence for this in the way that creationists try to use it. In addtion, the direct measurements of SN1987A produce results that demonstrate that light and the rest of physics has behaved as now for the last 170,000 years. I have yet to see a counter argument to the SN1987A measurements.
3) All the measurements of age are wrong.
And, not only that, they are somehow magically wrong in a way that allows independent agreement between a bunch of different dating methods. The various reasons why they are wrong are given as arm waving speculations without being completely thought out. In other cases the reasons are spurious. For example arguing that physical conditions can affect decay rates but neglecting to note that those conditions can not pertain to the earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Fuzzawakka, posted 08-08-2003 7:26 PM Fuzzawakka has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 08-08-2003 7:45 PM NosyNed has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 3 of 13 (49480)
08-08-2003 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by NosyNed
08-08-2003 7:33 PM


But can't the creation be six days on earth with millions of years passing in the outer universe?
Would that be possible with God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by NosyNed, posted 08-08-2003 7:33 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 08-08-2003 7:52 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 10 by Rrhain, posted 08-08-2003 10:21 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 4 of 13 (49484)
08-08-2003 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
08-08-2003 7:45 PM


Well, I suppose you could say that Genisis says he made the earth in 6 days but not anything else...
But then, wasen't it all formless void?
And the first thing God creates is Light, so why has the light been traveling so long if it was made on the first day of a 6 day creation?
If light only started eminating after God created it, then most of the sky would be pitch black, since there is not enugh time (in 6-8,000 years) for starlight to reach us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 08-08-2003 7:45 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 08-08-2003 7:57 PM Yaro has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 5 of 13 (49489)
08-08-2003 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Yaro
08-08-2003 7:52 PM


'If light only started eminating after God created it, then most of the sky would be pitch black, since there is not enugh time (in 6-8,000 years) for starlight to reach us.'
Good point, I never thought of that, could he have meant light in the universe generally though.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by joz, posted 08-08-2003 8:07 PM mike the wiz has replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 13 (49492)
08-08-2003 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
08-08-2003 7:57 PM


Lets put it this way....
God created everything 6,000 or so years ago but it looks older and gave us a book (bible) that directly contradicts the evidence, in one place he tells us that the universe is young but the evidence he provides shows that the universe is old.....
Or the universe really is old and, assuming for a second that God actually exsists he lies to us when his book claims otherwise....
Either way God lied to us, either the universe is young but was created to decieve us by appearing old, or the universe is actually old and God lies when he claims otherwise in his book......
Either way God is a liar and hence not omnibenevolent, hence not the christian God.....
Hence as mentioned earlier piss poor theology....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 08-08-2003 7:57 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 08-08-2003 8:22 PM joz has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 7 of 13 (49500)
08-08-2003 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by joz
08-08-2003 8:07 PM


'Either way God lied to us, either the universe is young but was created to decieve us by appearing old, or the universe is actually old and God lies when he claims otherwise in his book......
Either way God is a liar and hence not omnibenevolent, hence not the christian God.....
Hence as mentioned earlier piss poor theology.... '
However he could have told us it took six days , because it did on earth. And as we understand it (think hard) he was not lying, it took six days, even if millions of years passed in the outer universe, God says it took six. He could go into a deep ad scientific arguement in Genesis about how ,if you were on a star billions of miles away, you would be very old.lol. But why do that if you can say it took six days. If you witnessed it from earth it WOULD take six days so how is he lying?
I've got a headache now.lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by joz, posted 08-08-2003 8:07 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by joz, posted 08-08-2003 8:46 PM mike the wiz has replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 13 (49510)
08-08-2003 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mike the wiz
08-08-2003 8:22 PM


Heres a hint if that is an allusion to "starlight and time" Humphreys model contradicts quite a large ammount of physical data, whatever the coherency of his model (quite a few Physicists whgo actually specialise in relativity (Humphreys doesn't) feel that he made numerous mistakes) if it contradicts what evidence we have it is invalid n'est pas.....
If it isn't Humphreys work then what mechanism do you use to account for this (rather immense) time differential?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by mike the wiz, posted 08-08-2003 8:22 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 08-08-2003 8:50 PM joz has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 9 of 13 (49516)
08-08-2003 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by joz
08-08-2003 8:46 PM


'If it isn't Humphreys work then what mechanism do you use to account for this (rather immense) time differential? '
I'm not really claiming much , apart from 'all things are possible with God.' Nor have i contradicted evidence, as everything suggests the stars are old. But I believe in God so I could be totally wrong with my little 'time' theory. Figure that one out.lol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by joz, posted 08-08-2003 8:46 PM joz has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 10 of 13 (49537)
08-08-2003 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
08-08-2003 7:45 PM


mike the wiz writes:
quote:
But can't the creation be six days on earth with millions of years passing in the outer universe?
No, for the earth is part of the universe. There is no "outer universe."
Surely you're not about to invoke a relativity argument, are you? Do you realize how fast the earth would have to be moving with respect to the rest of the universe in order for 6 days earth time show up as nearly 15 billion years? Just how do you propose the earth survived the acceleration and deceleration without being torn into individual quarks?
quote:
Would that be possible with God?
If you're going to invoke magic, then just say so.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 08-08-2003 7:45 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dr Cresswell, posted 08-09-2003 7:37 AM Rrhain has not replied

Dr Cresswell
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 13 (49571)
08-09-2003 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rrhain
08-08-2003 10:21 PM


quote:
If you're going to invoke magic, then just say so.
This time I'll agree with you that such a trick would be magic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Rrhain, posted 08-08-2003 10:21 PM Rrhain has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 12 of 13 (50175)
08-12-2003 2:36 PM


panther_seven1 started a new topic, "the problem with the Gap Theory". Message 1 there is very long, and forum guidelines could be much discussed. I have closed that topic down, and referenced the discussion to this topic.
Adminnemooseus
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-12-2003]

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 13 of 13 (50177)
08-12-2003 2:39 PM


Thread copied to the Gap Theory thread in the The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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