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Author
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Topic: Islam does not hate christianity
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custard
Inactive Member
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Message 76 of 320 (187904)
02-23-2005 7:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
02-23-2005 5:58 PM
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Re: ...and the hatred lives on...
quote:
The majority of the Arabs who lived in "Palestine" had come there from a variety of Arab nations to work for the Israelis in the early part of the 20th Century and stayed on.
—faith
So what happened to all those Muslims who had kicked the European Christians out of Jerusalem once and for all in 1070 AD? It's true that the concept of Palestine as an independent state didn't exist until after WWII, but neither did Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, or Lebanon. They were all regions which comprised the Ottoman empire. But, as Jazzn points out, Palestine was recognized as a region, and the people who inhabited that region were referred to as 'palestinians.'
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by Faith, posted 02-23-2005 5:58 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by Faith, posted 02-23-2005 10:01 PM | | custard has replied |
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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1261 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: 01-12-2004
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Message 77 of 320 (187927)
02-23-2005 9:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
02-23-2005 6:21 PM
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Re: Islam is the enemy of all nonMuslims
faith and custard: I knew of the Ottamon empire I was posting in haste and didn't take time to think of what they actually conquered. I wasn't thinking of Europe only associating the pope, what was controlled by the church as Europe for some reason, forgive me. The point is that the treatment of conquered lands and the tolerance to their Judaism was extraordinary.
-one word to describe me, spectacular yes
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Faith, posted 02-23-2005 6:21 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 78 of 320 (187928)
02-23-2005 9:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Jazzns
02-23-2005 4:46 PM
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Re: Islam is the enemy of all nonMuslims
quote:
Historical atrocities done in the name of religion should not define a religion or else Christianity and Islam would be in the same boat.
It is the written inspired texts of Islam that prescribe the murder of the infidel, the Koran, the Hadiths. As I understand it the Hadiths are considered to be no less inspired than the Koran. The Bible prescribes no such thing, it teaches peace with all men, and putting others before self - not that we find that easy to live up to but that's what it commands. The "atrocities" done in the name of Christianity were done AGAINST the spirit and commands of the Bible. Not so those done in the name of Islam, which encourages and sanctions brutality against the infidel as service to God, giving direct encouragement TO THE READER to commit the bloody acts of violence we are so often treated to on the news. Though the Old Testament is accused of such "atrocities" these are all historically specific events in the past, commanded of people in the past, not today. There is nothing similar to the Koran's directives straight to the reader Muslim to do harm to others, as follows:
Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal harshly with them. ~ Repentance; Sura 9:123. The unbelievers are your sworn enemies. ~ Sura 4:101. "Take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then if they turn away seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take no friend nor helper from among them" ~ Sura 4:89. We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. They serve other gods for whom no sanction is revealed. Hell shall be their home. ~ The Imrans; Sura 3:150. When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its load. ~ Women; Sura 4:47 To smite a neck means to decapitate). "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, lie in ambush everywhere for them." ~ Repentance or Al-Tawba; Sura 9:5. Mohammed is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. ~ Victory; Sura 48:29. Let the unbelievers not think they will escape Us. They have not the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your disposal, so that you may strike terror into the enemies of Allah and the faithful, and others beside them. All that you give for the cause of Allah shall be repaid you. ~ The Spoils; Sura 8:60. "Make war on them [unbelievers]. Allah will chastise them through you and humble them." ~ Repentance or Al-Tawba; Sura 9:14. "Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither Allah or the Last Day." ~ Repentance or Al-Tawba; Sura 9:29. He brought down from their strongholds those who had supported them from among the People of the Book and cast terror into their hearts, so that some you slew and others you took captive. He made you masters of their land, their houses and their goods, and of yet another land on which you had never set foot before. ~ The Confederate Tribes; Sura 33:26-27. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-23-2005 21:45 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Jazzns, posted 02-23-2005 4:46 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by Jazzns, posted 02-24-2005 12:16 AM | | Faith has replied |
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6894 days) Posts: 863 From: Texas Joined: 04-09-2004
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Message 79 of 320 (187932)
02-23-2005 10:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by joz
02-23-2005 1:17 PM
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Re: Faith, Faith, Faith
quote:
Oh ok I see what you mean its only terrorism if you aren't xtian....
I'm stumped, but perhaps you don't know that everything that calls itself Christian does not a Christian make. There are loads of non-Christians attending church, non-Christian because they have no clue what it means to be one. They come in all sizes, from pope to pauper, and you can tell a man by his actions and his words. You talk the talk, you walk the walk. Christian terrorists is, therefore, a contradiction in terms. Is this true for Muslims? I would like to know if the same may be applied to Muslims, and if a Muslim does bad things, he is not really a Muslim?
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Hey, Albert, I agree!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by joz, posted 02-23-2005 1:17 PM | | joz has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 251 by nator, posted 02-27-2005 11:56 AM | | PecosGeorge has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 80 of 320 (187933)
02-23-2005 10:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 76 by custard
02-23-2005 7:42 PM
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Re: ...and the hatred lives on...
quote:
The majority of the Arabs who lived in "Palestine" had come there from a variety of Arab nations to work for the Israelis in the early part of the 20th Century and stayed on. So what happened to all those Muslims who had kicked the European Christians out of Jerusalem once and for all in 1070 AD?
It's not that there were NO Muslims in the area, but not very many and not exactly prosperous and thriving.
For many centuries, Palestine was a sparsely populated, poorly cultivated and widely-neglected expanse of eroded hills, sandy deserts and malarial marshes. Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described it as: "...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." As late as 1880, the American consul in Jerusalem reported the area was continuing its historic decline. "The population and wealth of Palestine has not increased during the last forty years," he said. The Report of the Palestine Royal Commission quotes an account of the Maritime Plain in 1913: 'The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts...no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached [the Jewish village of] Yabna [Yavne]....Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen....The ploughs used were of wood....The yields were very poor....The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist....The western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert....The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.' Lewis French, the British Director of Development wrote of Palestine: 'We found it inhabited by fellahin who lived in mud hovels and suffered severely from the prevalent malaria....Large areas...were uncultivated....The fellahin, if not themselves cattle thieves, were always ready to harbor these and other criminals. The individual plots...changed hands annually. There was little public security, and the fellahin's lot was an alternation of pillage and blackmail by their neighbors, the Bedouin.' Surprisingly, many people who were not sympathetic to the Zionist cause believed the Jews would improve the condition of Palestinian Arabs. For example, Dawood Barakat, editor of the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram, wrote: "It is absolutely necessary that an entente be made between the Zionists and Arabs, because the war of words can only do evil. The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country." The above is from: The Arabs in Palestine quote:
It's true that the concept of Palestine as an independent state didn't exist until after WWII, but neither did Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, or Lebanon. They were all regions which comprised the Ottoman empire. But, as Jazzn points out, Palestine was recognized as a region, and the people who inhabited that region were referred to as 'palestinians.'
But that included the Jews who lived there too. There was not a "Palestinian people" until 1967. And I quoted Walid Shoebat above, who says his identity as a Jordanian was suddenly transformed into Palestinian overnight in June of 1967. And the new term encompasses ALL the Arabs and Muslims, but especially those who had left Israel when they were attacked by the Arab states in 1948, the "refugees." Certainly there must be some there whose roots go back generations in the land, such as the family of the poster here, but the great majority were those who had arrived as immigrants from other Arab nations in the early 20th century, and could easily have been reabsorbed by those Arab nations, but were not because they made a very convenient way to set Israel up for criticism.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by custard, posted 02-23-2005 7:42 PM | | custard has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 82 by custard, posted 02-23-2005 10:25 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 81 of 320 (187939)
02-23-2005 10:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by Jazzns
02-23-2005 5:41 PM
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Funny thing about most of the Moslems I know. They consider the Bible to be the holy word of God that has been corrupted by man. Some can even quote the Bible better than many Christians. Heck, most of them believe that Christ is coming back on judgement day! They believe in most of what the Gospels say and treat Jesus as an extremely important figure in their religion. They just don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. Saying that Moslems are anti-Christian is just plain ignorant. Go to many Islamic fundamentalist nations and try distributing Bibles or preaching Jesus and his father God, Jehovah or begin building a Christian church. LOL! You had better have your sffairs at home settled before you leave on this mission.  On the other hand, go to most Christian majority nations and the Koran as well as Islam may be taught freely. Mosques are allowed also. OR, if you're a Muslim in many nations and you decide to convert out of Islam, you're likely going to die for doing so, as Mohammed taught and practiced that this should be the punishment. The Haddiths and the Sunas call for death to heretics also, i.e. those who convert out.
In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by Jazzns, posted 02-23-2005 5:41 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by custard, posted 02-23-2005 10:32 PM | | Buzsaw has replied | | | Message 94 by Jazzns, posted 02-24-2005 12:23 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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custard
Inactive Member
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Message 82 of 320 (187943)
02-23-2005 10:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
02-23-2005 10:01 PM
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Re: ...and the hatred lives on...
quote:
There was not a "Palestinian people" until 1967. And I quoted Walid Shoebat above, who says his identity as a Jordanian was suddenly transformed into Palestinian overnight in June of 1967.
—faith
Walid has me confused since "Jordan" or "Transjordan" as it was called was separated from "Palestine" in 1920 by the Brits after they 'liberated' the region from the Ottomans. In fact, the Balfour Declaration of 1917 clearly states:
quote:
His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
So what were all these 'existing non-Jewish communities' in Palestine called? Jordanians? Jazzn has already told us that these peole were called 'Palestinians' (filistini). I think what Walid might be referring to is the 1967 Arab-Israeli war when Israel seized Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan - although why he would now be called Palestinian instead of Jordanian is still confusing to me. Regardless, Walid's testimony hardly invalidates several hundred years of accepted history.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Faith, posted 02-23-2005 10:01 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 95 by Faith, posted 02-24-2005 12:27 AM | | custard has replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 83 of 320 (187944)
02-23-2005 10:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Jazzns
02-23-2005 4:46 PM
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Re: Islam is the enemy of all nonMuslims
Certainly the Hadith talk about this but not all "Islamic fundamentalists" follow the Hadith... From what I've read of and about the Hadiths and Sunnas, the apostles/desciples of Mohammed wrote many of these after his death and they are considered by most as important as Christians regard the New Testament in the Bible which is an addition to the Jewish scriptures. In fact I believe the majority of fundamentalists regard them as more relevant and important than the Koran itself as do Christians with the NT.
In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Jazzns, posted 02-23-2005 4:46 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 92 by Jazzns, posted 02-23-2005 11:55 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 84 of 320 (187945)
02-23-2005 10:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by Jazzns
02-23-2005 6:42 PM
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Re: Not more of the Palestinians don't exist stuff...
[quote] Not more of the Palestinians don't exist stuff...
quote:
I stand by it. The term was coined for propaganda purposes. You really need to read that thread. You are treading on very sensitive ground with this.
I read the thread. It is true that there were some people who had lived there for generations and your family may be among them. I'll take your word for it. Most of them continued happily living in Israel from reports I have read. If your family had an identity as "Palestinians" or "Philistines" throughout their generations, this kind of identity is not mentioned in anything I've read on the subject, which is really quite a bit, but I'll take your word for it. In any case, as Walid Shoebat says of himself in the quote I gave, the majority had national identities from outside Palestine, until 1967 when they suddenly became "Palestinians." While certainly there were some long-time residents, the refugees were predominantly the descendants of those Arabs who had been drawn to the area to work for the Israelis while they were developing the land, and were not Palestinians. It would in fact help you to clarify your family's history in the land if you learned more about this history I'm talking about.
quote:
The myth grew up of a Palestinian people over time but it was fanned by Islam's official hatred of Israel and the Jews. It appears that many Palestinians have come to believe the myth but it is nevertheless a myth. Except for the people who lived there for hundreds of years and have been called Philistinis for that long. Like me.
Well, as I say above, it would help clarify things if you would acknowledge that the majority of "Palestinians" are NOT, like your family, long-time residents of the land.
quote:
Well the house that my great-great grandfather built that is still standing today might disagree with your "evidence". I am more likely to believe the people who have actually lived there over other who are likely to have a political bias toward "evidence" that the Palestinian people are not native. Not even DarkStar was bold enough to try to say that Palestinians didn't live there before the Israeli occupation. That evidence better be pretty darn solid.
This goes back to the beginning of the 20th century, not just "before the Israeli occupation." The PEOPLE were there, but they were multi-national Arabs who had come to work for the Israelis, not indigenous to the area, as apparently your family was. The NAME changed in 1967. People who were not Palestinians became the "Palestinian people." If your family has a legitimate claim to the title, the majority do not.
quote:
Please read that thread. You may understand a little better where I am coming from. You will have to try a little harder though next time to try to prove to me that my family never existed.
I hope I have clarified my statements. Are you familiar with the book From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters? She did extensive research on the history of the Palestinian situation and documents most of the facts I am presenting here. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-23-2005 22:32 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by Jazzns, posted 02-23-2005 6:42 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 97 by Jazzns, posted 02-24-2005 12:37 AM | | Faith has replied |
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custard
Inactive Member
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Message 85 of 320 (187947)
02-23-2005 10:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Buzsaw
02-23-2005 10:16 PM
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uhhh
quote:
Go to many Islamic fundamentalist nations and try distributing Bibles or preaching Jesus and his father God, Jehovah or begin building a Christian church. LOL!
—buzzsaw
Most of your "Islamic fundamentalist nations" have had churches and christians for hundreds of years - Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria to name a few. As for 20th century missionaries, take a look at just about any protestant or Mormon website and you'll find info about their missions from Albania to Kazakhstan. Some of these countries might not allow street corner preaching like in the states, but they have missions and missionaries aplenty.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Buzsaw, posted 02-23-2005 10:16 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 02-23-2005 10:57 PM | | custard has replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Re: Islam is the enemy of all nonMuslims
Allah is not a name, it is the Arabic word for 'God'. I've discussed this with Buzsaw a while ago. You might want to check this thread Pardon, Andya, but you never established with me that Allah was not the name of the Muslim god. If Allah is not a name, what IS the name of your god? Yes, Allah means god, but there's no other name in Islam that I am aware of for the Muslim god. The name Jehovah is in the OT manuscripts some 6000 times, but Islam does not recognize that name, nor is in the Koran at all that I am aware of. Go to a Muslim fundie nation and try preaching/teaching that Allah's proper name is Jehovah/Yahweh as the Bible teaches. LOL. In the Bible, elohim/god is a generic name referring to any god, depending on context. It is not the proper name for the Biblical god. Jehovah/Yahweh is the proper name of the Biblical god.
In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 87 of 320 (187958)
02-23-2005 10:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 85 by custard
02-23-2005 10:32 PM
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Re: uhhh
Most of your "Islamic fundamentalist nations" have had churches and christians for hundreds of years - Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria to name a few. As for 20th century missionaries, take a look at just about any protestant or Mormon website and you'll find info about their missions from Albania to Kazakhstan. Some of these countries might not allow street corner preaching like in the states, but they have missions and missionaries aplenty. Many Islamic nations do not allow missionaries to proselyte for converts in their nations. I believe Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Andya's Indonesia, would be just a few. Correct me if I'm wrong. In many nations it would be dangerous to do so, regardless. I have friends who are translators in Indonesia, but my understanding is that they may go only as translators and not as missionaries perse. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 02-23-2005 23:04 AM
In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by custard, posted 02-23-2005 10:32 PM | | custard has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 11:10 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied | | | Message 90 by custard, posted 02-23-2005 11:18 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 88 of 320 (187961)
02-23-2005 11:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Buzsaw
02-23-2005 10:57 PM
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Missionaries
Many Islamic nations do not allow missionaries to proselyte for converts in their nations. I believe Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Andya's Indonesia, would be just a few. Correct me if I'm wrong. In many nations it would be dangerous to do so, regardless. I have friends who are translators in Indonesia, but my understanding is that they may go only as translators and not as missionaries perse. Good!
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 02-23-2005 10:57 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 89 of 320 (187962)
02-23-2005 11:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
02-23-2005 2:36 PM
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That's a moral law of the universe we live in But it isn't, though. It's not a moral law.
But you prefer your self-righteousness to the righteousness of the God who made you so I leave you to your folly. Ok. But lets keep in mind that I'm not the one justifying the brutal slaughter of children.
Anyone who would make such evil comparisons is frighteningly self-destructive. Which is just what I was about to say about you. It never ceases to amaze me how God's apologists employ the exact same arguments battered women use to exonerate their abusive husbands.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by Faith, posted 02-23-2005 2:36 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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custard
Inactive Member
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Message 90 of 320 (187966)
02-23-2005 11:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Buzsaw
02-23-2005 10:57 PM
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Re: uhhh
quote:
Many Islamic nations do not allow missionaries to proselyte for converts in their nations. I believe Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Andya's Indonesia,
How do you explain significant INDIGENOUS Christian populations in Syria, Iran, and Iraq (I don't know about SA). And not just Christians, there are Ba'hai, Jews, and other religions as well.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 02-23-2005 10:57 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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