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Member (Idle past 2960 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
frako Member (Idle past 332 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Scientists and geneticists have proven that all humans have one common ancestor. The bible in the Genesis ch.1 account clearly says that Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth and we are their offspring. Even scientists today debate amongst themselves about the theory of humans evolving from apes but if you believe in God's Word which is the Truth then all other explanations of how humans came to existance would be null and void. Witch of the common ancestors of all humans are you talking about the: Homo hadilbergenis, homo ergaster........ ???? or are you talking about the ancestor of all humans and all apes the ancestor of both of the above mentioned cqause that is what science has proven
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Scientists and geneticists have proven that all humans have one common ancestor. The bible in the Genesis ch.1 account clearly says that Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth and we are their offspring. We recently had a whole thread devoted to this topic, All Human Beings Are Descendants of Adam . You should read through that to find out many of the ways in which what you say here is incorrect, the principal one being that modern humans have thousands of ancestor in common not just one.
Even scientists today debate amongst themselves about the theory of humans evolving from apes No they seriously don't, you could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of biologists who would disagree that humans share common ancestors with chimpanzees and Gorillas. What they may do is debate the specifics of the timing and nature of the diversification of the apes, but that isn't what you were describing. TTFN, WK
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frako Member (Idle past 332 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Still have not seen any positive proof that we are evolving though? Probably the reactivation of some old gen though still evolution will this trait be selected for and we all become harry doubt it unless some form of ice age comes again and it is very beneficial to have fur. now i know what you will say but that is a birth defect yes and so are the roughly 4 gens that you have that are different from your mother and father and it gets passed on to his children as do your mutations the point is selection. if the environment select those changes like an ice age and all with that mutation/birth defect have a grater chance of surviving and breeding then the world gets overrun by harry humans.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes:
I think Shapiro is saying Macro evolution cannot take place as per the current evolutionary theory. that Macro changes are a result of Natural Genetic Engineering processes that cause change in a relatively short period of time. Then micro evolution takes over. Okay. That's a pretty clear statement. Can you support your interpretation as expressed above with quotes from Shapiro's paper?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
If a mutations beneficial and deleterious are directed to a specific locus, and then purifying selection deletes the deleterious mutations, isn't that a process which selects beneficial mutations that were directed to that locus? Yes. You're getting there. It's not that there's a particular tendency for the mutations to be good, it's that those that are good tend to be selected for. (Your nomenclature is, however, wrong: we call it "purifying selection" if the new variant is the inferior one, and is eliminated.)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes: I understand that the beneficial mutations are being directed to a locus only, along with deleterious mutations, and purfyilng selection eliminates the deleterious mutations, thereby allowing only the beneficial mutations to proceded. that appears to be directed for fittnes to me. Shadow71, your statement seems pretty close to the conventional thinking, shadow71. So I know I must be misunderstanding you. What do you mean when you say "purfyilng selection eliminates the deleterious mutations".
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
OliverChant writes: Still have not seen any positive proof that we are evolving though? I understand your position. But assuming that someone did attempt to prove that humans were still evolving, how would that discussion be on topic in this thread? This thread is really about possible mechanisms for evolution and not about whether or not humans evolve or ever did evolve. Please take a look at the first message in this thread. There are threads on this site were your comments would be on topic. If you cannot suspend your disbelief sufficiently to be on topic here, why not post in another thread?
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2960 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Okay. That's a pretty clear statement. Can you support your interpretation as expressed above with quotes from Shapiro's paper? Shapiro from "Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century" writes:
Although there remain many gaps in our knowledge, we are now in a position to outline a distinctively 21st century scenario for evolutionary change. The scenario includes the following elements: (1) hereditary variation arises from the non-random action of built-in biochemical systems that mobilize DNA and carry out natural genetic engineering; (2) major disruptions of an organism's ecology trigger cell and genome restructuring. The ecological disruptions can act directly, through stress on individuals, or indirectly, through changes in the biota that favour unusual interactions between individuals (cell fusions, interspecific hybridizations). Triggering events continue until a new ecology has emerged that is filled with organisms capable of utilizing the available resources; (3) ecologically-triggered cell and genome restructurings produce organisms which, at some frequency, will possess novel adaptive features that suit the altered environment. Novel adaptive features can be complex from the beginning because they result from processes that operate on pre-existing functional systems, whose components can be amplified and rearranged in new combinations. Competition for resources (purifying selection) serves to eliminate those novel system architectures that are not functional in the new ecology; (4) once ecological stability has been achieved, natural genetic engineering functions are silenced, the tempo of innovation abates, and microevolution can occur to fine-tune recent evolutionary inventions through successions of minor changes. This 21st century scenario assumes a major role for the kind of cellular sensitivities and genomic responses emphasized by McClintock in her 1984 Nobel Prize address [1]. Such a cognitive component is absent from conventional evolutionary theory because 19th and 20th century evolutionists were not sufficiently knowledgeable about cellular response and control networks. This 21st century view of evolution establishes a reasonable connection between ecological changes, cell and organism responses, widespread genome restructuring, and the rapid emergence of adaptive inventions. It also answers the objections to conventional theory raised by intelligent design advocates, because evolution by natural genetic engineering has the capacity to generate complex novelties. In other words, our best defense against anti-science obscurantism comes from the study of mobile DNA because that is the subject that has most significantly transformed evolution from natural history into a vibrant empirical science.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2960 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Shadow71, your statement seems pretty close to the conventional thinking, shadow71. So I know I must be misunderstanding you. What do you mean when you say "purfyilng selection eliminates the deleterious mutations". Not sure of the accurracy of this, but I take it to mean that all mutations that are not beneficial are destroyed, or not picked, in some way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
shadow71 writes: NoNukes writes:
Shadow71, your statement seems pretty close to the conventional thinking, shadow71. So I know I must be misunderstanding you. What do you mean when you say "purfyilng selection eliminates the deleterious mutations". Not sure of the accurracy of this, but I take it to mean that all mutations that are not beneficial are destroyed, or not picked, in some way. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, actually only those that would be fatal get selected out. AbE: and even those can remain if the are not fatal before the critter reproduces. Edited by jar, : AbE: Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes: Not sure of the accurracy of this, but I take it to mean that all mutations that are not beneficial are destroyed, or not picked, in some way. This is a rather important point for you to be waffling about. It's a major point of departure between you and some of the others in this thread. We all seem to agree that selection is the key for directing evolution (for some definition of direct). Surely at least some mutations are not viable, but what about mutations that are viable but which are neutral in the sense that they are unhelpful in countering the particular environmental stress? What if those mutations might be helpful in countering some other environmental change? From Shapiro:
quote: Shapiro clearly equates "purifying selection" with natural selection. What else can "competition for resources" mean? It's also pretty clear that Shapiro does not hypothesize genetic engineering that generating novel structures that always increase fitness. Edited by NoNukes, : Add more stuff
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
shadow71 writes: NoNukes writes:
Okay. That's a pretty clear statement. Can you support your interpretation as expressed above with quotes from Shapiro's paper? Shapiro from "Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century" writes:
Although there remain many gaps in our knowledge, we are now in a position to outline a distinctively 21st century scenario for evolutionary change. This portion of the paper is all speculation on Shapiro's part. But it does address my question. I address some portions of this in later posts. I note that Shapiro considers his proposed scenario to be a rebuttal of criticisms from intelligent design advocates.
quote:
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8553 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
can you tell me what was the origin of the matter that made stars, atoms, planets, molecules? What was before the big bang & how did it arise? I can tell you our understanding of where the heavier elements (atoms) came from that formed the molecules, planets, etc. I can tell you our understanding of how the original stars formed from the hydrogen clouds in the early universe. I can take you back in time, through galaxy formation, star formation, the inflationary epoch right back to 10-30 seconds before ... whatever it was that kicked off this whole mess. Prior to that, no one knows. No one. Not me, not you, not any professors, not any priests. Imperfect knowledge is a poor excuse for fantasy, don't you think? Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide and off-topic banner.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Not sure of the accurracy of this, but I take it to mean that all mutations that are not beneficial are destroyed, or not picked, in some way.
In other words you have no idea what you are posting? Since you don't know what it means, why don't you post the source. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2668 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Is the above statement;" Completely random..." a quote from Wright? Yes. Now. Since Wright contends that 99.5% of all mutations are random and undirected, let's see you cite a paper that supports directed mutation in something other than a microorganism. And, once again, don't ignore the question. Just provide a cite.
I understand that the beneficial mutations are being directed to a locus only, along with deleterious mutations, and purfyilng selection eliminates the deleterious mutations, thereby allowing only the beneficial mutations to proceded. Here's a definition of directed.
A definition of adaptive mutation is that only useful, not deleterious or neutral, mutations occur during selection (7, 12, 29). Source. However, that's not what happens. Neutral mutations accumulate.
To date, two cases of neutral mutations occurring at higher frequencies than expected among selected mutants have been published. Source. Deleterious mutations accumulate too.
First, lethal mutations remove cells from the mutagenized population and reduce the potential yield of individuals with a beneficial mutation. Second, even genomes that acquire a beneficial mutation (without suffering a lethal mutation) are likely to acquire deleterious nonlethal mutations. Source. In the words of an author who collaborates with Cairns.
The controversy surrounding adaptive mutation originally centered on whether and how selected mutations could arise when neutral or deleterious mutations did not. The two criteria for this selectivity were: (a) nonselected mutations did not occur during selection; and (b) the selected mutations did not arise under nonspecific stress, such as starvation. As discussed above, several prominent examples of adaptive mutation have failed one or the other of these tests. FAILED.
Source. Guess what it's called when beneficial, neutral and deleterious mutations accumulate and are sorted out by natural selection? Random mutation! (Just in case it needs to be said again, random with respect to fitness.) You know who claimed that only beneficial mutations accumulate? Cairns! And you know in which paper? The one he had to refute in a later paper! Remember?
Fairly early on in our studies, Cairns and I eliminated the hypothesis that mutations were directed toward a useful goal. (This) allowed us to dismiss the hypothesis that the selective conditions instructed the cell to make appropriate mutations. Source. Tell you what. How about you provide a cite for directed mutation in a microorganism in which only beneficial mutations are produced? And make it after 2004. After Cairns tucked his tail in between his legs and admitted he had failed. Hey. Here's a thought. Show me where in Wright's paper she claims that only beneficial mutations were produced!
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