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Author Topic:   Before the Big Bang
numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6090 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 136 of 311 (406503)
06-20-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by sidelined
11-20-2004 1:06 AM


When does space time break down?
I am new here and I will identify myself as neither an atheist or creationist (certainly not the latter). I would say I lean very much in the direction of science but stop short of pretending to know the un-known. That is the supernatural and what was there before the Big Bang? One may be proven some day but the other will have to be revealed to us as it is not scientifically testable.
My questions are these:
I have heard many times that space and time do not or need not exist without the Big Bang under that same theory. What I have a hard time understanding is why. At what point does space time break down and stop existing? For each moment in time it would seem there are infinite smaller moments between. Does time really even exist at all or just space? Can space time exist in a black hole? Is it necessary that infinitely small and dense locations be devoid of space and time? Singularity that is.
A different topic:
I know that disproving creation is possible...is disproving the existence of God possible?
Sorry for all the jumbled questions but if you have incite in to any of them I would appreciate your response.

I think therefore I am...busy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by sidelined, posted 11-20-2004 1:06 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Chiroptera, posted 06-20-2007 6:14 PM numnuts has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 311 (406506)
06-20-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by numnuts
06-20-2007 5:54 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
Hi, num. Welcome to EvC.
...what was there before the Big Bang?
Well, if by "Big Bang" you mean the singularity that marks the beginning of the universe (and time itself), then there was no "before". Time itself begins at this point. Since "before" and "after" can only be assigned to events in time, if there is not time then there is no "before" or "after".
Weird, huh?
-
I have heard many times that space and time do not or need not exist without the Big Bang under that same theory.
I have no idea what this means. Where did you hear this?
-
Does time really even exist at all or just space?
Kant claims that neither time nor space exist in the real, external world, that these concepts are created in our minds to make sense of our sensory data. I have no idea how to even prove or disprove this. Certain our mathematical models that make use of "time" and "space" are useful, so it's hard to imagine that these concepts are just artificial constructions, but what do I know?
-
I know that disproving creation is possible...is disproving the existence of God possible?
I don't know what you mean by "disprove", but if you mean to be shown to be very unlikely based on the available data, why would God be different from any other thing that may or may not exist?

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by numnuts, posted 06-20-2007 5:54 PM numnuts has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by numnuts, posted 06-20-2007 6:57 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 141 by numnuts, posted 06-21-2007 9:32 AM Chiroptera has replied

numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6090 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 138 of 311 (406509)
06-20-2007 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Reserve
04-25-2007 7:49 PM


Re: Big Bang = Big Contradiction?
Reserve,
Those two statements are not the same, something coming from nothing is not saying the same thing as something ALWAYS there. Since time is related to matter, and God not being matter. Maybe its more accurate to say that God exists outside of time, since God created time with matter "In the beginning God created..." instead of saying God existed before time.
Time is another concoction of man to explain the relationship between the visible universe, and location within the visible universe. Infinity need not be a measure of time and DOES exist and can easily be demonstrated so we need not discuss the possibilities of IF there was something before the Big Bang only WHAT did it look like. Can the properties of the universe exist in infinity? Of course...if it exists today it would ALWAYS exist in some form. This eliminates the need for a creator but does not exclude the possibilty. I am not here to try and prove that God does not exist only that the universe COULD always exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Reserve, posted 04-25-2007 7:49 PM Reserve has not replied

numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6090 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 139 of 311 (406510)
06-20-2007 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Chiroptera
06-20-2007 6:14 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
Thanks Chiroptera,
That brings up another question. I have often heard that theories cannot be proven only proved not to be true. Proving something not to be true seems to me to be proving something.
A little help here? As you can tell I am not a scientist nor scholar just someone recently introduced to science as an interest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Chiroptera, posted 06-20-2007 6:14 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Chiroptera, posted 06-20-2007 7:12 PM numnuts has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 311 (406512)
06-20-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by numnuts
06-20-2007 6:57 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
I have often heard that theories cannot be proven only proved not to be true.
This isn't the way I like to look at it. To me, theories are either useful, or they are not useful. If the predictions of a theory continue to be observed in the real world within an accepted degree of accuracy, especially of the theory predicts new, previously unobserved phenomena, then the theory is useful. If observations in the real world are different from the predictions of the theory, then the theory is not useful.
This means that a single theory, like Newton's Laws of Motion and his Law of Gravity, can be useful in one context (like sending probes to Saturn) but not very useful in another (like in studying the expansion of the universe).

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by numnuts, posted 06-20-2007 6:57 PM numnuts has not replied

numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6090 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 141 of 311 (406561)
06-21-2007 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Chiroptera
06-20-2007 6:14 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
Chiro,
Sorry I couldn't respond yesterday.
My main question was where does spacetime (or at least the laws explaining it) as we know it break down. If singularity is what came before the Big Bang and it can be shown that spacetime cannot or does not exist in singularity...then at what exact point after does spacetime exist as we know it? Immediately or 10 to the -43rd power seconds after the Big Bang? Is a black hole considered singularity? If it's singularity can each black hole be explained as a reverse Big Bang?
Where do the known natural laws break down when explaining what happens to space and time and matter as it nears singularity?

I think therefore I am...busy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Chiroptera, posted 06-20-2007 6:14 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Chiroptera, posted 06-21-2007 11:01 AM numnuts has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 311 (406572)
06-21-2007 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by numnuts
06-21-2007 9:32 AM


Re: When does space time break down?
Hi, num.
These questions are better left for our resident cosmologists, but I'll give them a shot.
-
My main question was where does spacetime (or at least the laws explaining it) as we know it break down.
I'm not sure what you're asking here. The laws of physics as we know them don't work earlier than about 10-40 sec after the singularity. The density and energies of the particles becomes too high. This isn't the laws of physics or space-time "breaking down" -- what is happening is that the laws of physics as we know them are really an approximation of how the universe actually behaves, and at the density and energies before 10-40 sec the errors in this approximation are too large to give any meaningful description of the early universe.
-
If singularity is what came before the Big Bang and it can be shown that spacetime cannot or does not exist in singularity...then at what exact point after does spacetime exist as we know it?
First, let me point out that Big Bang is not an event. It is a description of the conditions during early universe, of the processes that operated during the early history of the universe, and of how those conditions and processes gave rise to the universe we see today around us.
The singularity is the beginning point of time, before which there is nothing, not even time. A good analogy is the north pole. In the latitude/longitude coordinate system that we use to locate points on the surface of the earth, the north pole is a troublesome spot. Furthermore, notice that there is no "north" of the north pole. Asking what was there before the singularity postulated by the Big Bang model is like asking what is north of the north pole. Also, the question you are asking is like asking as one goes further north, at what point does the earth's surface exist as we know it?
Now, at what point does space-time exist? Interesting question. It depends on what new understanding of the laws of physics we come to that will allow us to investigate the universe before 10-40 sec. If those models make use of space-time as it is generally understood in General Relativity, then one can say that space-time existed up to that singularity. If, on the other hand, the mathematical models don't have anything very much like the concept of space-time as it is understood in General Relativity, then one could say that "space-time" doesn't make sense as a concept until the densities and temperatures become low enough for "classical" General Relativity to be a sufficiently accurate theory.
Our local cosmologists are going to have to be the ones to describe the contenders for Quantum Gravity, the proposed theories that might be the correct one to use for the first fraction of a second after the singularity.
-
If it's singularity can each black hole be explained as a reverse Big Bang?
I think kind of, but the cosmologists will have to weigh in to tell us how accurate this comparison is.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by numnuts, posted 06-21-2007 9:32 AM numnuts has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by numnuts, posted 06-21-2007 1:54 PM Chiroptera has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 143 of 311 (406579)
06-21-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Itachi Uchiha
11-20-2004 2:06 PM


Re: Things in common
jazz,
Remember that god's dimension is outside our 3d physical world. Its something like a 6d universe we cant comprehend.
Did you say that with a straight face?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-20-2004 2:06 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6090 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 144 of 311 (406595)
06-21-2007 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Chiroptera
06-21-2007 11:01 AM


Re: When does space time break down?
Chiro,
Thanks again! I don't want to get caught up in semantics here. When I say Big Bang and Singularity and space time I realize we are talking about descriptive words to describe things we are not 100% clear on. I know (at least I think I do) that there was not really an explosion but more of a rapid expansion. Let's call it Extreme Expansion for all I care. Call Singularity an infinitely small and dense point which includes the entire mass of the universe. Again not a big deal what we call it. Let's call proven infinitely close to being verified fact in order to get around the semantics.
Do you know if I can express a Black Hole as a cone shape funnel (like a twisting tornado) where the tip is the singularity? I am just trying to get a picture of whether or not I think a reverse Big Bang can be at the other side of Singularity or in another dimension. A negative Big Bang in essence or mirror Big Bang you know...equal and opposite. In other words are there possible other smaller universes on the other side of Black Holes? I know that there is probably no literal "other side". If a Black Hole is around long enough and creates sufficient gravity by eating up surrounding stars will it eventually engulf the rest of the universe?
I am just wondering and not looking necessarily for verification as much as I am looking for the answer NO that cannot happen. Is it a feasible possibility (not an ifinitely small possibiltiy) option in other words. If you don't have the answer that's fine. Anyone that can offer info is appreciated. Sorry for all the annoying questions.

I think therefore I am...busy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Chiroptera, posted 06-21-2007 11:01 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Son Goku, posted 06-21-2007 2:21 PM numnuts has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 311 (406602)
06-21-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by numnuts
06-21-2007 1:54 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
The Big Bang has more in common with ice melting into water than anything else. I'll explain.
A property of ice is brittleness, how easily shattered it is. Water doesn't have this property at all, the property is lost in the phase transition between states.
It is a similar thing with the Big Bang and whatever Quantum Gravity physics went before. "Spacetime" is only sensical idea when things are cold enough.
The Big Bang and a black hole are the reverses of each other in the sense that in a black hole the universe returns to Quantum Gravity physics and at the Big Bang Quantum Gravity physics settled down into our universe.
The Big Bang was a "Freezing" and a black hole is a "melting".
In this analogy the singularity is 0 degrees centigrade. If an alien race only had a theory of ice they'd notice that their equations contained a singularity where brittleness became infinite and that this occurred at 0 degrees centigrade.
Edited by Son Goku, : Spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by numnuts, posted 06-21-2007 1:54 PM numnuts has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by numnuts, posted 06-21-2007 3:07 PM Son Goku has replied

numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6090 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 146 of 311 (406613)
06-21-2007 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Son Goku
06-21-2007 2:21 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
Son Goku,
Interesting. So the laws that help explain spacetime break down in sufficient heat or energy and can exist (how we know it) after sufficient cooling. It has nothing to do with denisty other than the density presumably has something to do with the heat via friction?
I wonder if the Big Bang can be described as an overstuffed laundry basket where the contents just couldn't hold itself anymore by virtue of there being so much inside of it. Or would it be better to say a chemical reaction like a can of coke that under sufficient heat or cold would explode. I guess that wouldn't explain the continual expansion now would it?

I think therefore I am...busy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Son Goku, posted 06-21-2007 2:21 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Son Goku, posted 06-21-2007 3:28 PM numnuts has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 311 (406619)
06-21-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by numnuts
06-21-2007 3:07 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
Interesting. So the laws that help explain spacetime break down in sufficient heat or energy and can exist (how we know it) after sufficient cooling. It has nothing to do with denisty other than the density presumably has something to do with the heat via friction?
Well it was dense and hot back then. Spacetime only exists when the energy density is low enough. High heat and high density imply high energy density.
I wonder if the Big Bang can be described as an overstuffed laundry basket where the contents just couldn't hold itself anymore by virtue of there being so much inside of it. Or would it be better to say a chemical reaction like a can of coke that under sufficient heat or cold would explode. I guess that wouldn't explain the continual expansion now would it?
Remember that spacetime only exists on one side of the phase transition. The pre-bang "stuff" wouldn't have been compacted and crushed waiting to "burst".
Whatever that stuff is, when it gets "cold" and "calm" enough it forms a large coherent structure we call spacetime and spacetime operating under its own rules expands once it has formed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by numnuts, posted 06-21-2007 3:07 PM numnuts has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by numnuts, posted 06-21-2007 4:27 PM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 149 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2007 5:46 PM Son Goku has replied

numnuts
Junior Member (Idle past 6090 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 148 of 311 (406638)
06-21-2007 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Son Goku
06-21-2007 3:28 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
Son Goku,
Okay I figured I would be in over my head here but I will try to grasp it as much as it is graspable.
Remember that spacetime only exists on one side of the phase transition. The pre-bang "stuff" wouldn't have been compacted and crushed waiting to "burst".
Whatever that stuff is, when it gets "cold" and "calm" enough it forms a large coherent structure we call spacetime and spacetime operating under its own rules expands once it has formed.
Whatever that stuff is (I thought) was the contents of the universe in a different form. If a Black Hole is a reverse scenario of Big bang then the contents moving toward and into the infinite density are in fact some of the contents of the universe...correct? I will assume everything changes form or property in high energy/density. Are you saying that there really may be no pressure/force exerted on the contents in the form or property they take in singularity. I wonder is the singularity form of the universe the preferred/natural form or is the Big Bang form preferred by it's contents? I guess that's kind of a chaos vs order question.
I promise I will stop after this one for today. Thanks for your help and Chiro too!

I think therefore I am...busy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Son Goku, posted 06-21-2007 3:28 PM Son Goku has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 149 of 311 (406657)
06-21-2007 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Son Goku
06-21-2007 3:28 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
Remember that spacetime only exists on one side of the phase transition. The pre-bang "stuff" wouldn't have been compacted and crushed waiting to "burst".
Whatever that stuff is, when it gets "cold" and "calm" enough it forms a large coherent structure we call spacetime and spacetime operating under its own rules expands once it has formed.
Hmmm, your sounding a bit definitive here, SG. Where's this coming from? There's many possibilities here - from a brane perspective there's no pre-phase transition structure other than 'normal' Nd space-time; and with no-boundary, the transition is at the other extreme - i.e no transition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Son Goku, posted 06-21-2007 3:28 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Son Goku, posted 06-21-2007 6:27 PM cavediver has replied

Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 311 (406666)
06-21-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by cavediver
06-21-2007 5:46 PM


Re: When does space time break down?
Hmmm, your sounding a bit definitive here, SG. Where's this coming from? There's many possibilities here - from a brane perspective there's no pre-phase transition structure other than 'normal' Nd space-time; and with no-boundary, the transition is at the other extreme - i.e no transition.
I'm just trying to get across some of the thermodynamic analogies from the Big Bang which I think can be helpful in understanding it. Again as you know it's hard to talk about it when in certain approaches your sentence contains no target nouns (as it would with Hartle-Hawking).
I'm kind of just trying to say the big bang singularity has all the hall-marks of an "effective theory" singularity (like theories of oil in the high-viscosity limit). However in some theories this approach is irrelvant, so I'd have to say it another way and emphasize other things,.......... yada yada.......
I know the inaccuracy is a bit flippant and I thought you'd pick me up on it, I guess I'm just trying to avoid writing an essay.
Do you think it might be better to only discuss the big bang in the context GR and stay clear of an discussion of Quantum Gravity in case one favours one approach too much?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2007 5:46 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by cavediver, posted 06-22-2007 2:51 PM Son Goku has not replied

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