Biological Reduction and Free Will

Ned, I'm not sure if you mean the last sentence of my post, or the last sentence in the part you quoted about blind sight. If it's the blind sight this is discussed in Antonio Damasio's book:Damasio AR: The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness, Harcourt Brace, New York, 1999, 2000.It turns out there are two vision pathways in the brain. There can be injury to the conscious one and then the person is blind, can't see anything, yet if encouraged to point to a source of light they can though they don't "see" it i.e. have no awareness of seeing it, they can avoid obstacles also. He goes into other disorders such as people who have brain damage so they don't remember anything and yet they can learn to do things they just consciously have no access that they know it.lfen

Very Interesting,Ifen.The normal pathway were the nerves.
I believe the consciousness pathway to be a wire made from anti-atoms of silver(Based on the Book of Proverbs and near-death experiences).
This wire enables positrons to travel to the past.This message has been edited by Newborn, 12-24-2004 09:14 PM

Newborn I am going to regret this I know but could you please explain how you came to such a bizarre conclusion?

I am sorry,its not Proverbs but Eclesiasts (the book after that).
Its in Eclesiasts 12:6.
This and near-death experiences.This message has been edited by Newborn, 12-25-2004 11:40 AM

NewbornYou still need to explain your assertion since it is not clear what you mean.

I created a thread where I discuss many topics (each one is discussed when the previous is understood or at least debated enough).Its called "Alliance between Creation and Evolution".I start adressing the diference between the two terms using an analogy.No one has replied yet so I cant proceed.As soon as replies were made I will eventualy talk about the "wire thing" which is related with my "Homothetical theorem".I just posted that here to see if anyone else thought that.
By the way,I have never seen a forum where the posts are ordered from bottom to top.Interesting.

Silver antimatter?
Is that perhaps a recent interpretation?

I'm not sure QM saves free-will, but because it shows that the initial conditions are non-existant rather than definable to the infinite decimal I think it may show that nature's chosen path cannot be determined -- at least with infinitely precise physical models as was believed in the past. At the beginning of every causal chain is an uncertainty where probability or nature or God rather than a previous cause determines what will happen next.I don't know if science can fully explain free-will. I think this will become a very important question in the next 20 years as new computing technology allows intelligence in manmade devices to possibly exceed our own. We may be able to watch the evolution of this thing called free-will right before our eyes.Subjectively I cannot convince myself that I do not have free-will. I can look at my palm and open and close my hand whenever and however I wish, and I can even choose to search for truth. But from a purely scientific point of view I can't see that there is any room for free-will (unless there is some undiscovered component of our brains e.g. quantum computation that relies on undetermined factors which we may metaphysically determine).I think free-will like most everything else in the universe (time, space, matter, energy, probability, etc...) is a perfect illusion, a hint at something greater, and the birthplace of the human spirit.

Say where? Where is this birthplace? Is it within human imagination or is it something greater?

Forget the "wire" thing.I think it leads to nothing.
Did free will exist?
We know that a physical event depends uniquely on a previous one and so on (determinism).
But the chain of events begun some time ago.
I dont believe by now that QM solves the problem of free will (I believed in the past).
Thats not the answer.
Now consider this analogy:
Someone opens a window and throws different objects to an infinite well below.
Lets supose the total of objects is N and there is a special gravitacional field with the property dr/dt=Ar in wich r is the distance between the object and the window.Lets name the time between the fall of the first object and of the latter,T.
During this period T there is no conservation of mass on the well obviously.Lets supose the person that throws the objects (David) has a friend (Jonh)and the object thrown depends on the actions of Jonh.
N is a great number.Lets consider interaction between the objects on the fall.T is of the order of seconds.Now,billions of years later all the objects are set on a configuration on the well.Jonh cant say he decided this configuration
now .Jonh decided this configuration in an instant t little than T.And it was David,looking at Jonhs actions who decided the outcome of the objects later.(David is Omniscient)
The outcome only appears billions of years later and some of this objects forms "Jonhs body doing something".In general some of the objects during a time interval constitute "Jonhs life" .
After the last object David goes to rest.
Any difference in the outcome through free will can only happen in the period T,not later.Later there is conservation of mass and the "objects universe" is closed(window closed).Now to the symbology.
House-Spiritual realm
Weel-Physical realm
Objects-Material objects in general
David-God
Jonh-Human soul.
T-Creation period.
J=Time between T and infinitum-Evolution time
A-Hubbles constant
Interactions between objects-Gravity,Strong Force,electric force,etc...
Gravity represents the universal expansion force.This is my theory on free will and I call it "Homothetical theorem"There is more to it but I dont have time to explain it now.Later I will talk about information and faith in the context of free will.
This message has been edited by Newborn, 12-27-2004 15:34 AMThis message has been edited by Newborn, 12-27-2004 15:35 AMThis message has been edited by Newborn, 12-27-2004 16:03 AMThis message has been edited by Newborn, 12-27-2004 16:06 AMThis message has been edited by Newborn, 12-27-2004 16:13 AM

Any thoughts lately on quantum uncertainty? Could you have a look at my message no. 4, if you're still interested?

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

Hi Parsimonium,My views are right in line with yours. I worded my OP poorly on my last edit before submission--what I meant to say is, PLEASE DON'T argue for quantum determinacy for saving free will; I've heard that one and it does nothing for me.There's one thing that you didn't mention, but only because it wasn't necessary. But just to try and add SOMETHING here :You and I agree that free will is apparent, but given the premises that we accept, it is not "true." However, it IS apparent, and we DO NOT have the information available at our fingertips (and maybe in principle cannot have that information, if it is too great to determine within a "reasonable" finite amount of time). So... yeah, there's no free will, but there's every reason to ACT like there is one. In fact, I would argue (like you, I would suspect) that the APPEARANCE of free will (and acting accordingly) is important in survival.Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.Ben

On re-reading your post I see that I missed that subtle cue. But I'm glad we agree. But if there is no free will, you cannot choose to act as if there is. You either survive, or you don't, but you have no active part in deciding it. All you can do is rationalize your actions - or rather, what happened to you - in retrospect, in such a way as to seem to have originated from free will. And now it's time for me to add something. I'm quoting myself now: I said this here: Message 12

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

double deletedThis message has been edited by contracycle, 12-28-2004 13:27 AM

Parasomnium wrote:

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If free will does not exist, then 'intentional homicide' isn't intentional at all, it just feels that way.

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Yep. the language of "intention, inititiation, execution" is a minefield of miscommunication.

quote:

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Not so, see Message 4

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I saw it. Did you actually read what I wrote?