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Author Topic:   What makes you unbelieve Crash ?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 46 of 200 (100204)
04-15-2004 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by nator
04-15-2004 10:18 AM


So are we to assume that you have been keeping meticulous records of what you say to God when you pray;
Lol, not exactly. But if one prayer comes true it's kind of easy to remember. Also, the last prayers in which I have asked for things are easy to remember. It is not often I would ask for something, however a recent example was a woman who asked for believers to pray for her family. Her son was being bullied because he was a believer and so we prayed, and indeed we believed - I myself, with great belief and fervor, and those bullies became Christians the next day. That's one prayer I can remember. Though what I remember mostly is the belief I had at the time. So get back Schrafinator -- get back to the truth. Stop seeking Godless journeys -- get back. - and get off that horse!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by nator, posted 04-15-2004 10:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 86 by nator, posted 04-21-2004 12:45 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 47 of 200 (100205)
04-15-2004 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by SRO2
04-15-2004 10:17 AM


Re: Statistically there is.
You'll have to show your calculations. I've seen those with a number of guessed at numbers in them. If the input is garbage the output is too.
As for intelligent life we have a sample of exactly one. You don't do statistics on that.
It is true that microbial life on Mars would change the guess about life's commonness. Expontential is not the right term to use.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by SRO2, posted 04-15-2004 10:17 AM SRO2 has replied

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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 48 of 200 (100215)
04-15-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by mike the wiz
04-15-2004 10:42 AM


Re: Why believe?
Mike,
You're the one who seems to want it both ways. You conclude from Nature that God exists? I'd say you're just seeing what you want to see. You pay lip service to the things that are beautiful or impressive, and just ignore the aspects of Nature that are cruel, wasteful, or unfair.
Are the thousands of species of tapeworm proof that a loving God exists? How about children born with disabilities due to genetic mutations? Does the extinction of millions of species throughout Earth's history testify to a purposeful intelligence in the universe? Should the fact that the overwhelming majority of organisms on Earth are bacteria convince us that we have an eternal soul?
Don't misunderstand me, I never claimed that these things prove there isn't a God. However, these things must be considered if Nature is your evidence of God's existence.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2004 10:42 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2004 1:08 PM MrHambre has replied

  
SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 200 (100219)
04-15-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NosyNed
04-15-2004 11:06 AM


Re: Statistically there is.
Doubling a quantity isn't exponential? Try telling that to a rabbit. I'm using "exponential" in a relative sense. Adding one apple to a set of one creating a set of two wouldn't be exponential....adding a planet with life to a set of one is going to end up equaling a hell of a lot more.
I've been looking for adjustments in the traditional equations to account for the recent Hubble discoveries and haven't ran into anything as yet, but I'm certain the probability numbers are going to have to be re-examined based on these discoveries and the growing list of proven planets in other solar systems. Until recently, they couldn't even be certain other sloar systems existed much less other planets.

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 50 of 200 (100236)
04-15-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by MrHambre
04-15-2004 12:08 PM


Et riding gunshot on santa's tapeworm
Well, nature is an example of my personal evidence. My point being that my personal opinion of the evidence is the same as your personal opinion of the evidence. MN makes conclusions about that which it testable. You conclude no God and I conclude God.
You said that MN concludes no God. I personally, think that science (MN)- doesn't have a view on God.
Are the thousands of species of tapeworm proof that a loving God exists?
Tapeworm? Hardly takes away the meaning of life does it? Unless you let it. Besides, I'll take this route in order to get back on topic....If you have an enemy like tapeworm in your body, who said with prayer you can be healed? - I'll let you figure that one out.
Don't misunderstand me, I never claimed that these things prove there isn't a God. However, these things must be considered if Nature is your evidence of God's existence.
Fair enough. Ofcourse, nature is one example of a personal evidence of my own. To me, nature implies God, hence the personal in evidence.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-15-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by MrHambre, posted 04-15-2004 12:08 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by MrHambre, posted 04-15-2004 1:50 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 51 of 200 (100244)
04-15-2004 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by mike the wiz
04-15-2004 1:08 PM


Personal Science and Supernatural Nature
Mike,
I only asked why you'd consider Nature evidence of God if so much in nature is cruel, wasteful or unfair. Your answer seems to be that God must be cruel, wasteful, and unfair. I should have known.
{added by edit}
So the tapeworm is evidence (personal evidence, por supuesto) for God because people who have them pray to God to be delivered from the tapeworm that God created so people would pray to Him? Am I getting warm?
regards,
Esteban "Ant Bible" Hambre
[This message has been edited by MrHambre, 04-15-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2004 1:08 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2004 7:43 PM MrHambre has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 52 of 200 (100257)
04-15-2004 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by SRO2
04-15-2004 10:17 AM


Re: Statistically there is.
quote:
Raw statistics indicate that not only is there life on other planets, there is also intellegent life on other planets. If Microbrial life is discovered on Mars, those statics should increase exponentially.
I've seen the so-called math work on this so-called stats before. They based the whole thing on the premise that Earth-like planets are abundant throughout the universe, and they actually came up with the percentage. Don't ask me how they came up with this number. Must be God...
But anyway, like Ned said, if you put an imaginary number in, you're going to get an imaginary number out. Like my computer programing instructor always say, if you input garbage you are going to get more garbage as an output.
I am not saying that there is no alien life out there. I am hopeful that there are. However, I'm being objective here by only considering the data and evidence that we have so far, not make-belief stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by SRO2, posted 04-15-2004 10:17 AM SRO2 has replied

Replies to this message:
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SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 200 (100258)
04-15-2004 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by coffee_addict
04-15-2004 4:03 PM


Re: Statistically there is.
Statistics is never to be considered solid empirical data, they are just odds. I've seen all the latest models...and it's true you get out what you put in...but with each new planet discovered, the probability numbers go up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by coffee_addict, posted 04-15-2004 4:03 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by coffee_addict, posted 04-15-2004 4:12 PM SRO2 has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 54 of 200 (100259)
04-15-2004 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by mike the wiz
04-15-2004 10:56 AM


I'm done talking with you, Mike. I can understand now that we are opperating on completely different levels of human thought.
I am an objective person. In order for something to be considered evidence to me, it has to work everytime and it has to be recognized by other people. Believe me that I have my own biased beliefs. However, I try my best not to let it influence my logic. Like I said, I do not trust my senses if other people can't see the dead girl that stands in my room all day. To me, personal evidence just isn't enough to establish truth. I strongly encourage people to be objective in their thought process and approach everything with an unbiased mind. However, I can't make them believe that this dead girl is there even though I'm the only person that can see her, unless I can make her make things float around....
However, if you feel that it is enough for you, have a nice life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2004 10:56 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Brad McFall, posted 04-15-2004 4:22 PM coffee_addict has replied
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 55 of 200 (100260)
04-15-2004 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by SRO2
04-15-2004 4:08 PM


Re: Statistically there is.
quote:
Statistics is never to be considered solid empirical data, they are just odds. I've seen all the latest models...and it's true you get out what you put in...but with each new planet discovered, the probability numbers go up.
There, you said it. They are just probabilities. Even though I don't even buy it, probabilities doesn't mean truth. If you are the least scientific, you should know that scientists can't say "we know there are alien out there" simply because some probabilities cranked out from imaginary numbers say so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by SRO2, posted 04-15-2004 4:08 PM SRO2 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 56 of 200 (100262)
04-15-2004 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by coffee_addict
04-15-2004 4:12 PM


Re: Statistically there is.
BUT THERE ARE scientists (Gould for sure, Sagan to some extent) who DO think that that is the way science should interact into the humanities future. I'm with you, but there are other voices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by coffee_addict, posted 04-15-2004 4:12 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 57 of 200 (100265)
04-15-2004 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by coffee_addict
04-15-2004 4:10 PM


The Bible works more often than science. Just now for instance I was being asked if I was suspect of doing something wrong as there is apparently someone suspicious in the school. This does not apply to truths in the Bible. They will be true whether I was the wanted person or not or was the dead "girl" in the corner. It works every time. Science and society does not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by coffee_addict, posted 04-15-2004 4:10 PM coffee_addict has replied

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SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 200 (100266)
04-15-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by coffee_addict
04-15-2004 4:12 PM


Re: Statistically there is.
I never said "we know there are alien out there"...I said "statistically" there are...translation..."probably".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by coffee_addict, posted 04-15-2004 4:12 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 59 of 200 (100268)
04-15-2004 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Brad McFall
04-15-2004 4:22 PM


quote:
The Bible works more often than science. Just now for instance I was being asked if I was suspect of doing something wrong as there is apparently someone suspicious in the school. This does not apply to truths in the Bible. They will be true whether I was the wanted person or not or was the dead "girl" in the corner. It works every time. Science and society does not.
Dude, are you drunk?

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Replies to this message:
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SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 200 (100269)
04-15-2004 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by coffee_addict
04-15-2004 4:47 PM


I'll have whatever he's having...uhmmmm...no I won't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by coffee_addict, posted 04-15-2004 4:47 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
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