|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: Women and Religion - Does it anger you? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
That's my read from your statement. Right. So then why was your immediate response to do exactly what I told you should not be done; that is, confuse the fact that men set themselves up as decision-makers with a greater ability to make decisions? That's what I didn't understand. How you were able to read a non-ambiguous statement in English and then do exactly what it warned you not to do, with no explanation. More seriously, clearly you disagree with me - you think that the fact that men set themselves up as decision-makers indicates greater ability to make decisions. Well, you don't just get to say that without supporting it, or accounting for other explanations. For instance I say that men set themselves up as decision-makers because everyone realizes that the decision-maker is in an advantageous position to make decisions that benefit themselves at the expense of others; and men are big enough and strong enough to force women out of those positions (early in history) and subequently erect barriers to prevent women from getting back in. In short men make the decisions because they make decisions that are good for men.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Denesha Inactive Member |
Dear Crash,
I think you could transcend your opignion by meaning that it is also a classic way to avoid women to become "loudmouths". Thus consider female just good enough for reprobuctive business and nothing more intellectual. It's a easy shortcut. My reject of any religious Xtio-judeo-islamic stuff underlie this. I'm not aware of others but partially, I prefer not to test. Denesha
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Hey, I was perfectly cheerful...
No, really. Thanks moose, I'll know where to go next time.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5062 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
it was a psychological question. I would rather dissus the physicality of thermodynamics so (I) prefer to await the dissusion of Glaydshev's comments on Creationism itself either folded into current threads by me if the admins demure and the personal e-mail was fake/fraud or else when a full fledged comparison of BOTH GP's BS's contribution to core heirarchical extensions is opened here on EvC that Gould's big book is not the lizard tail it appeared to be. The c-e differences shakes out to be not really this hard psychologically but merely to what formal heirarchies are reconstructable by man given the causal interaction of levels of selection and levels of organization no matter the diverse approaches mentally we have here at EVC.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: How many women do you know inimately enough that they would confide their true feelings about how fulfilled they are in their marriage, buz? Be honest, now. Also, how many self-avowed feminist women or men do you know on a personal basis? Just because you casually observe people in your immediate social group doesn't mean you know what most women think, or even what the women you know really think. There's a lot of "making nice for appearance sake" that happens in public.
quote: What makes you think there is automatically "on and off bickering" in an equal partnership?
quote: So, the wife can present her wishes and the husband can consider them, but ultimately, the man can do what he wants, right? That's a parent/child relationship, buz, not an adult relationship.
quote: Lower voices make men better leaders? What kind of silliness is that? Buz, culturally, men have usually been leaders, which is why we associate lower voices with leaders. It's just a physical difference that we associate with males. Men can't hear sounds as high as those women can hear because the bones in their ears are too large to detect them. Is this a sign that they are better leaders, too? Also, are you saying that being able to physically intimidate and dominate others automatically makes males better leaders? Does that mean that a large, strong woman with a low voice would be a good leader, and a small, weak man with a high voice would be a poor leader? What about a strong, big man with a high voice, like Mike Tyson? What about lots of body hair? Is that a sign of the ability to lead?
quote: That is a completely bald, unsupported assertion that can be ignored.
quote: Not true at all. There are many species of organisms where the males provide nothing but genetic material and the female provides everything for the offspring. No male presence, let alone leadership. The leader of wild horse herds is the Alpha female; she decides where they will graze and drink. The females protect the offspring from predators. I think many herd animals have similar Alpha female leaders, like elephants. Lemurs also have a matriarchal society.
quote: What does this have to do with humans' ability to lead? Maybe you don't realize this, but these days female humans are just as likely to persue a man and initiate sex as males are.
quote: Why do you think that there is bickering in a relationship of equals? Negotiation, buz, remember? That's what grown ups do when they have a disagreement and they need to work it out equitably and respectfully. If the husband can ultimately always win every disagreement, then he is effectively the parent of the wife. He can't possibly respect her if he always has the power to dominate her will. The wife can't possibly respect herself if her will is ultimately not hers.
quote: Then why are conservative christians the most likely to divorce, and athiests and agnostics and catholics the least likely to get divorced?
quote: Wouldn't conservative christians, as a group, be more likely to do things this way? If true, then why do they get divorced at a rate greater than agnostics and atheists?
quote: You are just fudging here. The truth is, buz, no matter how you try to wiggle away from it, is that the more conservative a Christian you are, and therefore the more likely you are to follow this marriage model, them more likely it is that your marriage will fail. Maybe that's because women these days want to be treated as a full human being.
quote: The vice president of a company is not in a lifelong romantic relationship with the CEO of the company, most of the time. Also, the CEO's leadership position is not considered to be ordained by God. The board of directors can still can the CEO and make the VP the leader. If you want to make analogies between business relationships and romantic ones, the better model of a healthy marriage of adults is the partnership. If the Bible says that God is the head of the man, and that man is the head of the woman, then doesn't that strongly imply that women are in a childlike, subordinate position in the higherarchy? If a man can ultimately tell his wife what to do, she is in a childlike, subordinate position. How can it be otherwise?
quote: I disagree. I think that stress in a business comes from unclear expectations and from not having to tools or skills needed to do one's job. Since our management model has gotten a great deal of attention because it is so successful, we conduct seminars on the subject that lots of people have attended. This kind of management style is not for everyone, and it's very different from the traditional higherarchy. It is more difficult at first and requires managers to check their power trips and egos at the door, but the proof is in the pudding. Our turnover rate is half the industry average.
quote: So, you are saying that they share leadership? Even though she's so much smarter, what he says ultimately goes? That's kind of a dumb arrangement, isn't it?
quote: There aren't very many heated arguments in my marriage. However, just because there may not be any heated arguments in a marriage at all doesn't mean the marriage is healthy. How many "traditional" marriages of 20 or 30 years dissolve because the wife, who subsumed her will to her husbands' "for the sake of the children" couldn't take it any more and packed her bags after the kids moved out?
quote: Do you see what you just said buz??
it's the woman who manages the money and ends up the leader with the wimpy male the one begging like a child for a few bucks to buy the tool or whatever. Begging like a CHILD. A CHILD. When a marriage is not an equal partnership of adults where wants and needs are negotiated out of mutual love and respect, a parent/child relationship is inevitable, as you just illustrated. You DO understand this situation completely, since you decribed a perfect example, except you apparently think it's OK for a woman to be treated this way but not a man.
quote: I respect men who respect me and don't try to lead or control me. I don't need to be led/controlled, because I am an adult. I despise men who are too insecure to be in a relationship with a real, adult woman. A man that always has to feel in charge of his wife is an impotent man in many ways, indeed. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-22-2004]
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Do you see what you just said buz??
it's the woman who manages the money and ends up the leader with the wimpy male the one begging like a child for a few bucks to buy the tool or whatever. Begging like a CHILD. A CHILD. YOU said the man was reduced to being CHILDLIKE. When a marriage is not an equal partnership of adults where wants and needs are negotiated out of mutual love and respect, a parent/child relationship is inevitable, as you just illustrated. You DO understand this situation completely, since you decribed a perfect example, except you apparently think it's OK for a woman to be treated this way but it's incredibly distateful to you when it happens to a man. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-22-2004]
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
Lam:
Never have I seen a more blatant changing of what I said. You too are hysterically anti-christian as no reasonable person could interpret what I said to be anti-gay. You don't really care about gays or their social injustices - you used the slightest context to vault your real agenda against religion.Nobody used the Bible - it was you who used the Bible to cement a hateful stereotype at the expense of gay rights.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
WT:
Erosion of religious rights would seem to be off-topic in this thread. However, Crashfrog set up a special thread to discuss it. http://EvC Forum: What religious rights, if any, are currently being eroded in the USA? I hope you post there, so you can clarify your position. "As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?" -Holly
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Guys, could you please quote specific statements when responding so I don't have to spend 5 minutes each time trying to find the post that you responded to.
The Laminator
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
WILLOWTREE writes: Never have I seen a more blatant changing of what I said. You too are hysterically anti-christian as no reasonable person could interpret what I said to be anti-gay. You don't really care about gays or their social injustices - you used the slightest context to vault your real agenda against religion.Nobody used the Bible - it was you who used the Bible to cement a hateful stereotype at the expense of gay rights. For one thing, I do care, because I am one myself. I was not saying that religion was anti-gay. I was saying that everyone that I have heard that were against basic social rights for homosexuals (gay marriage, etc...) was always using the Judeo-Christian bible to back up their claims. Again, you don't hear the word "gay plague" from non-religious people. Since I am gay myself, I've been called sinner all that crap from religious people all the time. No, I am not generalizing. Nowhere have I said that ALL religious people are anti-gays. Just the ones that I have met. The Laminator
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Brad writes: it was a psychological question. I would rather dissus the physicality of thermodynamics so (I) prefer to await the dissusion of Glaydshev's comments on Creationism itself either folded into current threads by me if the admins demure and the personal e-mail was fake/fraud or else when a full fledged comparison of BOTH GP's BS's contribution to core heirarchical extensions is opened here on EvC that Gould's big book is not the lizard tail it appeared to be. The c-e differences shakes out to be not really this hard psychologically but merely to what formal heirarchies are reconstructable by man given the causal interaction of levels of selection and levels of organization no matter the diverse approaches mentally we have here at EVC. Brad, I'm sorry but I really have no idea what you are responding to. Please clarify. The Laminator
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
quote: If you're looking for the post being replied to, you just have to hit the message link below "This message is a reply to:". It'll take you right there. [This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 04-22-2004] "As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?" -Holly
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Thanx, Dan. I O U 1.
The Laminator
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5062 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
I am now waiting for adminmooseus or other to open a post topic to compare any former creationist notions with my own derivation of time for biological change. I am not going to continue discussing social issues and pyschological effects only.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
bump
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024