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Author Topic:   What makes you unbelieve Crash ?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 91 of 200 (101987)
04-22-2004 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by nator
04-21-2004 12:45 AM


Well this is it isn't it? You cannot really apply prayer to science, because Christ himself says that it is about belief. You see "blessed are those who believe when they have not seen". Someone said something once that I vaguely remember,(Percy I think) yet it holds water. He said Christ was most impressed by faith, and by those who have it when it seems there is nothing.(similar words)
OK, but first you have to show that your prayers are really being answered consistently at a rate better than chance would predict,
I know you are scientific, and I cannot offer you any evidence other than a testimony which I know is true, nor do I seek to "prove" God to you.
I have already said in message one, that it has now went beyond chance. I cannot say I have been healed, nor anything super-sensational, in order to impress. I seek not to lie about it. I may have this "bias" you talk about yet it is connected to belief. Those who would not believe when the chips are down are described in the parable of the sower "the worries of this world overcome the word" (similar words). How can I prove my prayers are answered? - Simple, I can't. My words will only be sufficient for me, because I seek not to lead you down the garden path.
Christ said believe, he did not say gather evidence. So I feel you cannot understand what I preach. I can only recommend that you search what you have previously overlooked as chance. If chance can explain my prayers - fine, I have no problem with that!! WHY? - Is that what you think?
Think not that I seek evidence or to convince you with it. I will accept it if you only see it as chance, think not that that will cause me unbelief. Can you see my point yet?
I must go now, I have my motorcycle training early tomorrow, the word said today to me, "Put on the helmet of salvation". Rather fitting don't you think! (hidden puns included).
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-22-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 04-21-2004 12:45 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 04-25-2004 1:34 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 92 of 200 (102089)
04-23-2004 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by One_Charred_Wing
04-22-2004 8:17 PM


Not sure of which of the following 2 ways you meant that so I'll answer both:
You possess an amazing facility for missing my point.
It's actually my fault. I keep anticipating your arguments and refuting them before you've actually made them, which isn't fair to you and can be confusing. So I'll back up a step, and respond to this again:
So far I've got confirmation from things that have happened recently in my life not to mention the 'paychecks' of personal growth etc.
People of every religion, and of no religion, get those things to the same degree that people of your faith do. Why is it that Christians experience the same degree of good and bad circumstance that everyone else does?
If we can go back to your retirement plan analogy, it's like this. You get an anonymous money order in the mail in an unmarked envelope. It's valid money but you don't know who it's from. You're in the retirement plan (The Jesus Trust) so you assume that it's from them.
The problem with that theory is that when you ask around, it turns out everyone you know got one, including people who claim to be in another plan or in no plan at all. What's the explanation? How do you know that the plan you're in isn't a scam?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-22-2004 8:17 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-23-2004 7:55 PM crashfrog has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 93 of 200 (102295)
04-23-2004 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by crashfrog
04-23-2004 1:42 AM


crashfrog writes:
You possess an amazing facility for missing my point.
It's actually my fault. I keep anticipating your arguments and refuting them before you've actually made them, which isn't fair to you and can be confusing. So I'll back up a step, and respond to this again
Okay, that's fine. But while we're at it I've noticed several occasions where I make about 5 points and you respond to about 2.
This last reply from you was an example.
The questions about the retirement plan analogy are good, but they are answered in the post you replied to; if you need clarification I'll be happy to oblige. Thanks.

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by crashfrog, posted 04-23-2004 1:42 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 04-23-2004 10:34 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 94 of 200 (102322)
04-23-2004 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by One_Charred_Wing
04-23-2004 7:55 PM


This last reply from you was an example.
Your points were a response to an argument you misunderstood, so I figured they were irrelevant. I'm not sure why you think I'd waste our time responding to rebuttals to arguments I'm not making.
The questions about the retirement plan analogy are good, but they are answered in the post you replied to;
I didn't see that you answered the main point at all, which I will summarize: How can you claim to be the recipient of the benefits of God if all humans, believers in God or not, get the same benefits?
Tell me if I need to make that clearer. You can't claim that the good things that happen to you (or even the bad things) are the direct result of your faith if everybody, faith or no, recieves the same things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-23-2004 7:55 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-24-2004 6:00 PM crashfrog has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 95 of 200 (102444)
04-24-2004 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
04-23-2004 10:34 PM


Not results of faith
crashfrog writes:
How can you claim to be the recipient of the benefits of God if all humans, believers in God or not, get the same benefits?
If all humans, believers in God or not, get the same benefits then it's pretty safe to say I've got those benefits, eh? For a long time nobody believed the earth revolved around the sun, but the night-day summer-winter effect was there because of this fact whether anyone believed in it or not.
However, I disagree that we all have it the same; this usually depends on the environment we live in. However, people that I know who have converted to Christianity all say there life got much more difficult since the conversion. This may not be universally true with every conversion case; but even then it doesn't hurt my arguement any.

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 04-23-2004 10:34 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 04-24-2004 6:35 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 96 of 200 (102453)
04-24-2004 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by One_Charred_Wing
04-24-2004 6:00 PM


If all humans, believers in God or not, get the same benefits then it's pretty safe to say I've got those benefits, eh?
There you go, missing the point again. Are you doing this on purpose?
The point is not that you're getting the benefits. The point is that if everybody gets them, regardless of faith, you can't claim that for Christians, they come from God.
However, people that I know who have converted to Christianity all say there life got much more difficult since the conversion.
I'm sure they do. Yet, statistics show that Christians are no more or less likely to have good or bad things happen to them than anybody else. People's lives change. I imagine that if you asked around you would find that just as many people had lives that got better, or didn't change at all.
That's my point. Your method of asking around is subject to response bias because you're not taking into account the things that prove you wrong (people who's lives change in the oppoiste direction you're looking for, or not at all), but only the things that prove you right.
Converting to Christianity has no statistical effect on your life, at least, no supernatural effect. I imagine that some people get happier or more satisfied when they do it. Me, I got happier when I left the church. That doesn't mean that there's a supernatural power to atheism.
This may not be universally true with every conversion case; but even then it doesn't hurt my arguement any.
It does hurt it. It means your sample set is tainted by response bias. You're cherry-picking from the sample set to get only the responses that prove your point and ignoring - even forgetting - the responses that prove you wrong.
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-24-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-24-2004 6:00 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-25-2004 3:37 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 116 by purpledawn, posted 04-27-2004 11:01 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 97 of 200 (102544)
04-25-2004 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by crashfrog
04-24-2004 6:35 PM


Mr. Preach will not be accused of treason!
crashfrog writes:
There you go, missing the point again. Are you doing this on purpose?
The point is not that you're getting the benefits. The point is that if everybody gets them, regardless of faith, you can't claim that for Christians, they come from God.
Dios Mo! Cul es su problema?!
Just kidding, but I feel it was you that missed my point in this case.
I didn't say that they come from God for Christians; they come
from God for everyone. If I didn't make that clear last time I'm sorry so I'm making it clear now.
crashfrog writes:
I imagine that if you asked around you would find that just as many people had lives that got better, or didn't change at all.
I asked around a long time ago; the ones that just converted said it was easier, and those who converted more than a year before I asked said it was harder.
crashfrog writes:
Converting to Christianity has no statistical effect on your life, at least, no supernatural effect. I imagine that some people get happier or more satisfied when they do it. Me, I got happier when I left the church. That doesn't mean that there's a supernatural power to atheism.
I guess no statistical effect, but supernatural effect I know lots of people who would disagree.
Also, happy and satisfied are two different things. You can be happy because you're no longer sad, but if you're sad because of something you're doing right then you're satisfied you did the right thing.
And when you got happier leaving the church does show from your own
personal experience that you were less happy as part of the church
than you were without it. A little personal touch to my arguement,
there.
crashfrog writes:
It does hurt it. It means your sample set is tainted by response bias. You're cherry-picking from the sample set to get only the responses that prove your point and ignoring - even forgetting - the responses that prove you wrong.
Please don't accuse me of leaving out information; I think that's pretty rude. No, I haven't been cherry-picking; what I was told according to my post is exactly what they told me. Whether or not they were telling the truth I can't say for sure, but I am being honest with you.
EDITED IN: Does anybody remember how to make the upside-down "!"
that goes with Spanish exclaimations?
[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 04-25-2004]

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 04-24-2004 6:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 04-25-2004 3:59 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 98 of 200 (102547)
04-25-2004 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by One_Charred_Wing
04-25-2004 3:37 AM


I didn't say that they come from God for Christians; they come
from God for everyone.
Well, that's pretty generous of him.
But that doesn't really help. See, you say that the benefits come from your God. The Hindus say it comes from theirs. The atheists say it comes from no-one at all; it's just happenstance.
Who's right?
I guess no statistical effect, but supernatural effect I know lots of people who would disagree.
Well, it's fine for them to think so, but there's just no reason to believe anything supernatural exists.
Please don't accuse me of leaving out information; I think that's pretty rude.
Everybody does it. In fact it's so prevalent among human beings that it's ludicrous to take someone's word that they aren't committing response bias. It's just a basic condition of the human mind - it forgets non-events. I'm not trying to call you a liar; I'm simply informing you that anecdotes do not make a science. Memory is a fickle thing and the least accurate way of trying to find out what is true about the world.
Do you know I'm not even sure what we're talking about anymore? Maybe this gets back to your idea of a Great Debate between us... I'm reticent because I don't know what the subject would be. I forsee an exchange like this:
"I believe God exists."
"I believe he doesn't, but there's no way to know for sure."
"I agree that there's no way to know for sure."
Where do we go from there? It's only people who make arguments like "I believe God exists and I know better than you" that I argue with. I don't think you hold that position.
My intent isn't to convince believers to unbelieve. It's to defend atheism as a rational choice from people who want to tell me that it's not. I don't think you've been trying to (which I respect and appreciate) so honestly I'm not so sure what we're discussing anymore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-25-2004 3:37 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-25-2004 2:48 PM crashfrog has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 200 (102604)
04-25-2004 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by mike the wiz
04-22-2004 8:33 PM


quote:
Christ said believe, he did not say gather evidence. So I feel you cannot understand what I preach. I can only recommend that you search what you have previously overlooked as chance. If chance can explain my prayers - fine, I have no problem with that!! WHY? - Is that what you think?
Think not that I seek evidence or to convince you with it. I will accept it if you only see it as chance, think not that that will cause me unbelief. Can you see my point yet?
Mike, you claim that your prayers have been answered by God.
I do not claim that this isn't what is happening.
I am saying that without the record keeping and methodology and correction for bias I have been describing, neither of us has any idea at all if what you describe as divine intervention performes any better than coincidence.
We don't know.
I certainly do understand that you have faith and simply believe that your prayers are being answered, but I also have difficulty understanding how you can have different rules about what you will believe about actual events.
It seems to me that you are picking and choosing the things that God has done according to your own wishes of what reality should be like, rather than how it actually is.
Personally, I am much more interested in knowing, as much as possible, what we can know, even if it is not comforting, and even if that knowledge is never complete.
For me, there exists too much fear of knowledge and inquiry and inspection inside the blind belief that you describe.
I don't mean for this to sound harsh, though these are my personal ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by mike the wiz, posted 04-22-2004 8:33 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2004 9:11 AM nator has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 100 of 200 (102613)
04-25-2004 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by crashfrog
04-25-2004 3:59 AM


Cease fire?
crashfrog writes:
But that doesn't really help. See, you say that the benefits come from your God. The Hindus say it comes from theirs. The atheists say it comes from no-one at all; it's just happenstance
Maybe Christians and Hindus are both right. They could both be misinterpreting the same divine presence.
crashfrog writes:
Well, it's fine for them to think so, but there's just no reason to believe anything supernatural exists.
There are many reasons to believe in it, you just choose not to.
crashfrog writes:
My intent isn't to convince believers to unbelieve. It's to defend atheism as a rational choice from people who want to tell me that it's not. I don't think you've been trying to (which I respect and appreciate) so honestly I'm not so sure what we're discussing anymore.
And I appriciate you being assertive of your points without being obtrusive to my point of view. About the no way to know for sure, there are no statistical accounts or scientific finds that will unquestionably dictate that a divine presence exists. I agree with Christians on this forum that through faith you get some confirmation, but I left that out because that doesn't hold legit in debate.
Really, I've lost track too. It's been fun debating with someone well-versed but open-minded, though. Either way I don't know what we're supposed to be doingn either. We could always hold a cease fire and double-team the people who say things that are irrational *cough* DES! *cough. Just kidding

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 04-25-2004 3:59 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by crashfrog, posted 04-26-2004 4:37 PM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 101 of 200 (102767)
04-26-2004 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by nator
04-25-2004 1:34 PM


Schraff with her wrath fighting midgets of belief
Schrafinator writes:
Mike, you claim that your prayers have been answered by God.
I do not claim that this isn't what is happening.
I am saying that without the record keeping and methodology and correction for bias I have been describing, neither of us has any idea at all if what you describe as divine intervention
Well, the difference is that I am a witness to events. I (personally) can myself, only deduce that the events are not merely chance. You are right, I have no way of absolutely knowing via evidence etc. But - yet I know. It is the belief itself that makes me know. That is why my prayer examples will never be enough for to convince you, nor would I intend it. You see, the belief is the key.
I know the O.P might look like I am trying to convince people my prayers are true. That was just an added input because of the Crashfrog quote.
It seems to me that you are picking and choosing the things that God has done according to your own wishes of what reality should be like, rather than how it actually is.
The other day - I must now add, (as it really did happen). I prayed for God to guide me in something - and he did not do it. Or he didn't immediately anyway - It can be recorded as a "no" or a "none-answer" if you want. It's not that I pick and choose - as I have now offered an example of how you can now choose unbelief, because I have just recorded an example which may cast doubt. You see, my only choice is to believe.
Do not for a moment think that I am against accumulation of facts. I will choose the discomforting truth over the comfortable fantasy, yet I am comfortably numb. Creationism doesn't mean much to me anymore. I am more inclined to take the unbarable hard uncomfortable facts of science, and if they suggest no God, you'll find me believing all the more. The point to this topic is belief. I am not even against evidence. You have sufficiently explained to me how methodology is the best way, and how science is reliable. But are you mixing the two (science and belief) where it isn't needed?
People often seek evidence that God is real. I'm not against you also seeking this or seeking proof of prayer. I am even happy for you to dismiss my talk as fantasy. What else could you do scientifically?
I think the belief you did have can still be re-captured, regardless of methodologies. In the NT, it is made so very obvious that it is the faith and belief which is required. Ignore me.
Edited, to clarify my vagueness.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by nator, posted 04-25-2004 1:34 PM nator has not replied

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 Message 102 by NosyNed, posted 04-26-2004 11:20 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 102 of 200 (102786)
04-26-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by mike the wiz
04-26-2004 9:11 AM


Double Blind
This whole thing, Mike, is why experiments are frequently conducted double blinded. It is often difficult but the problem of personal bias entering into the results is an understood and studied phenomenon.
Anything less would constitute evidence that anyone, of either view, should trust as being meaningful in anyway at all.
edited to change Nothing less to anything less
[This message has been edited by NosyNed, 04-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2004 9:11 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 103 of 200 (102853)
04-26-2004 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by One_Charred_Wing
04-25-2004 2:48 PM


They could both be misinterpreting the same divine presence.
What about the atheists, though? Remember their point is that since the "benefits" you're talking about seem to be just the way life is, there's no reason to ascribe anything supernatural to it.
There are many reasons to believe in it
Absolutely none that meet any kind of standard useful for reliably determining fact from fiction. That's why I don't believe.
About the no way to know for sure, there are no statistical accounts or scientific finds that will unquestionably dictate that a divine presence exists.
As far as I'm aware, those are the only methods for determining truths about the universe that reliably eliminate the most human bias. Hence, I don't believe.
Faith is fine for you but it doesn't work for me. Glad that we had this chat, tho. Catch ya in the evo debates, then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-25-2004 2:48 PM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
atrejusan
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 200 (102912)
04-26-2004 8:45 PM


quote:
About the no way to know for sure, there are no statistical accounts or scientific finds that will unquestionably dictate that a divine presence exists.
I wanted to comment on this point.
Science is ever questioning. Let's get that straight, peeps. Science does not "dictate". It (rational, scientific inquiry) is rather a refinement process hinging upon what believers in the supernatural (or tutu-wearing pink elephants on the planet Neptune) tend to dismiss, or else do not give the scrutiny and respect it deserves: the simple fact that human perception is flawed.
Rational, scientific inquiry, then, is simply a mental exercise: a systematic process, easily applied to events from the most ordinary (I open my eyes in the morning, and I behold light) to the more elusive (neutrinos, quarks, and dark energy); and by which we, flawed humans, humbly seek to refine our conception of reality, understanding first and foremost that our perception is flawed.
Belief in supernatural, theistic concepts (or, for that matter, grossly over-assumed material propositions such as pink tutu-wearing elephants on the planet Neptune) are, on the other hand, arrogant dismissals of this human limitation. They are also -- which strikes me as most odd in such exchanges -- dictatorial. As in "I shall believe, despite reason, because it simply is so."
Science does not dictate; arrogant misperception, on the other hand...

It knows only that it needs, commander. But, like so many of us, it does not know what.
- Spock

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2004 9:43 PM atrejusan has not replied
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 Message 107 by AdminAsgara, posted 04-26-2004 10:28 PM atrejusan has not replied
 Message 112 by crashfrog, posted 04-27-2004 2:40 AM atrejusan has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 105 of 200 (102918)
04-26-2004 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by atrejusan
04-26-2004 8:45 PM


Then preach it in the science section. This is faith and belief. And by the way, I'll believe in what I darn well want.
A theistic outlook is not an arrogant dismissal. If anything, we don't dismiss. It is you who dismiss possibilities, because of your limited newbie brain.
pink tutu-wearing elephants on the planet Neptune
Pink exists, so do elephants, so do planets and so does Neptune etc. How this bares relevance to theists is beyond me. Just how much did you "make" these things up?
and by which we, flawed humans,
Yes, you said it - flawed. Infact, I doubt a human could come up with or = God, especially with your example of human thought/none-thought.
Theists have concepts yet God is not their idea. Certainly nowaday Theists have not "made" God up, and you cannot prove their predecessors did. God also cannot be compared logically relevant to "pink elephants" or any other realities you stick together. I can also make silly statements:
Mutating Spock insect.
Now, show me how it bares logical relevance to God, who you cannot prove was invented. We can make plenty of other things up, usually from realities we find around us, "easter bunny" "Father Christmas". God is literally and totally different from these things. He is not taken from two realities and stuck together by a feeble human brain.
"Tatooed Brad monkey"
And if you insist upon these statements then you must realize they are taken from realities. So effectively - you are saying God is reality.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-26-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by atrejusan, posted 04-26-2004 8:45 PM atrejusan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by 1.61803, posted 04-27-2004 1:27 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 118 by nator, posted 04-27-2004 11:02 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
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