What makes you unbelieve Crash ?

I'm gonna get Mike's back here because he's being swarmed, and that's pretty messed up.Crash, I couldn't help but notice you throw some hard stabs at God ("God is a shitty parent", "Creationism is religious lies" etc.) whenever He gets brought up."Because if it can't be falsified, there's no way to know if it's true or not."So basically you're saying the glass is always half empty. If it's stuck somewhere in between with no way to know true or false, why just conclude false? You keep saying that God would do this or that if He really existed. That's pretty arrogant to think you would know what God would or wouldn't do(I do not claim to know either)in some given situation. It seems from what I've seen from you that you have this idea of what this God would say or do at given moments, and because it doesn't play out that way you just decide He doesn't exist.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"However, you then add "Creationism is religious lies". In what way is that a "stab at God"? "Good point."I agree with you that Crash may be overstepping if he thinks he knows what God would or wouldn't do. He doesn't. And you don't either. "Hope I didn't seem like I thought did, but thanks for keepin' everyone in check.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"...about God is universally and superlatively positive. Consider my comments an attempt to balance that out. "I dunno, there's a lot more people than you who are more than happy to balance those positive comments out. I'm friends with some of them."...the fact that believers accept (and are even thankful for) treatment from their God that would be characterized as abusive neglect and abandonment from any human."First off, a minor correction. I know people who believe in God that hate Him, so not everyone's thankful. But really, I had a dark time myself for quite some time but that 'neglect' sure helped. Gotta shed the skin before you can get bigger, huh? I (and many others)personally don't mind hard times as long as I make it out at the end to reap the rewards of personal growth. And according to the belief in heaven which generally comes with the belief in the Judeo-Christian God, that's exactly what the final outcome is.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"...Mr. Preach..." That made me laugh, thanks. I think I'll use that name when I become the first Christian fundamentalist pro wrestler."I mean, we tell people that we pay them, but only after they move to an undiscovered country so there's no chance they can come back and actually confirm payment."You get payments of personal growth after every hardship you manage to overcome. In a typical job you work and get your paycheck maybe every week/month or so. After working hard and well for many years, you can pick up your retirement fund. It's sorta like that, except this retirement fund is FOREVER. Beats any earthly retirement plan I've ever heard of."Look, it's fine for you to believe whatever you want to believe. I just don't find it reasonable to believe what you believe."That's fine, and I have no problem with your point of view either. But hopefully this clarified my reasoning some.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

"Sounds a lot like the retirement fund the employees of Enron got - they worked hard for years and in the end, got nothing. What's your guarantee that the reward is there?"So far I've got confirmation from things that have happened recently in my life not to mention the 'paychecks' of personal growth etc. Keep in mind though that God and the conspirators of Enron are different beings altogether. (If you want to make comments about the morality of God you're also involved in a thread about that so argue your case there.)"guess what it's done is present further confirmation of my thoughts on believers - they're more than happy to praise behavior in their God that in a human would constitute exploitation and abuse. "We've kept going back and forth on that for some time across more than one thread now. If you're going to pull that out again, fine, just do so in full. But argueing in cicles is kind of tedious.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Not sure of which of the following 2 ways you meant that so I'll answer both:'Everbody else' sees it as coincidence, huh? I guess so if that excludes anybody of any religious faith. You don't seem like the kind of person who decides personal beliefs by what lots of other people believe, so I don't think you meant that.If you mean that I think it's coincidence when it happens to everyone else then you're also incorrect about what I believe, please don't assume things like that. Lots of Christians would say they've grown a lot from dark times, and everyone I know who converted to Christianity agrees bad things have a way of happening more often once you convert. But even if people of other religions say the same thing, that just adds to my point even more.... Since I have a feeling you're going to bring up atheists I'll address that now.And as for atheists, just because they don't notice bad things happening in just the right time to make them grow as some extra help from above doesn't mean that it isn't.I realize that can go both ways, but since it appears you like statistics the VAST majority of the world (was it 93% or some?) would say there is divine intervention going on when bad things happen.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Okay, that's fine. But while we're at it I've noticed several occasions where I make about 5 points and you respond to about 2.
This last reply from you was an example.The questions about the retirement plan analogy are good, but they are answered in the post you replied to; if you need clarification I'll be happy to oblige. Thanks.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

If all humans, believers in God or not, get the same benefits then it's pretty safe to say I've got those benefits, eh? For a long time nobody believed the earth revolved around the sun, but the night-day summer-winter effect was there because of this fact whether anyone believed in it or not.However, I disagree that we all have it the same; this usually depends on the environment we live in. However, people that I know who have converted to Christianity all say there life got much more difficult since the conversion. This may not be universally true with every conversion case; but even then it doesn't hurt my arguement any.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Dios Mo! Cul es su problema?!Just kidding, but I feel it was you that missed my point in this case.
I didn't say that they come from God for Christians; they come
from God for everyone. If I didn't make that clear last time I'm sorry so I'm making it clear now. I asked around a long time ago; the ones that just converted said it was easier, and those who converted more than a year before I asked said it was harder. I guess no statistical effect, but supernatural effect I know lots of people who would disagree.Also, happy and satisfied are two different things. You can be happy because you're no longer sad, but if you're sad because of something you're doing right then you're satisfied you did the right thing.And when you got happier leaving the church does show from your own
personal experience that you were less happy as part of the church
than you were without it. A little personal touch to my arguement,
there. Please don't accuse me of leaving out information; I think that's pretty rude. No, I haven't been cherry-picking; what I was told according to my post is exactly what they told me. Whether or not they were telling the truth I can't say for sure, but I am being honest with you.EDITED IN: Does anybody remember how to make the upside-down "!"
that goes with Spanish exclaimations?[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 04-25-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Maybe Christians and Hindus are both right. They could both be misinterpreting the same divine presence. There are many reasons to believe in it, you just choose not to. And I appriciate you being assertive of your points without being obtrusive to my point of view. About the no way to know for sure, there are no statistical accounts or scientific finds that will unquestionably dictate that a divine presence exists. I agree with Christians on this forum that through faith you get some confirmation, but I left that out because that doesn't hold legit in debate.Really, I've lost track too. It's been fun debating with someone well-versed but open-minded, though. Either way I don't know what we're supposed to be doingn either. We could always hold a cease fire and double-team the people who say things that are irrational *cough* DES! *cough. Just kidding

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Captain Obvious saves the day: Exactly, so I guess when I said that nothing scientificly dictated the existence of God I'd be right, eh? I'm not a scientist but I know that science does not dictate, kiddo.Let's continue: So all believers tend to dismiss this, huh? Furthurmore, the 'respect it(science I think) deserves'?? Please, I agree that humans are flawed but science is conducted by humans so I think it deserves the respect that I give to those who conduct it; which is a lot more than you seem to think that us believers give it. I'm trying to debate politely, but two replies to me with this kind of arrogance and you're pushing your luck...Anyway, how is theism a dismissal of human limitations? Christianity especially reminds us that we are limited in everthing including perception. Which brings up the possibility that your perception is simply wrong and mine is right. I realize that could go both ways, where you don't seem to. Does. You have shown us a perfect example of arrogance due to misperception of theists by simply posting that last message.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 04-26-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

You're right about the tenses and I appriciate the correction. And a broadly directed response doesn't always apply to me; please don't use the straw man tactic on me.Masked display of a personal motive? The only motive I had was to correct you, it kind of sounds like you're accusing me of some kinda conspiracy. Look at what I said, then look at the quote I am replying to. I'll make sure to be more specific next time but you should be able to figure it out. Humans and human perception are both flawed, for one thing. When I say doubt you seem to imply I don't believe a word scientists say and that's not true; but if you're going to tell me scientists are perfect then you are mistaken. I didn't say anything was wrong with scientific claims, did I?Science is tentative; old theories are getting revamped and old ideas of how things worked are being thrown out all the time. So with that in mind I see nothing wrong with being open to the idea that current science could be outdated someday.And speaking of unchecked human perception, you sure seem to assume a lot about theists that just aren't true. You should've asked first, kiddo.If I make a reply specific to you, I shall make that clear in my reply. If you do take my generalization of religious belief as an address to your sensibilities, that is not my concern. I do, however, state my reasoning here in an emotionally neutral fashion. Arrogance is to denote an unwarranted conceit; and since context is assertions of reality, the unwarranted conceit addresses unwarranted assertions of reality. That’s pretty simple. No, it doesn't. Perceiving the world around you leads to knowing; when it's religion we're talking about faith. There's perception when it comes to how you percieve God, but not in believing in him. You are very quick to call things arrogant for someone who struts in and makes sweeping generalizations about what theists think and then call that narrow-minded. Very hypocritical. I will not deny that I'm being a little less friendly to you than most people, but you need to consider that if you slap someone across the face, they will probably slap you back. Look what happened to Rick James.Please try to lighten up, I don't care if you want to deprive yourself of emotion on this forum; lots of robots are nicer than you've been so far.[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 04-27-2004]

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Just want to point out one thing about schrafinator's last post: Can be, but I strongly assert that it isn't. For one thing, there is no believer alive today that I know of without doubt. I think it's safe to say most believers do have doubts and questions including myself; but that has nothing to do with arrogance. What you may view as arrogance could in fact just be strength of faith. If someone were to believe in God so strongly it wouldn't be arrogance anymore than you saying beyond doubt that your best friend exists.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Maybe, but it's easy to cover-up doubt when all you see of someone is symbols they input onto an internet forum.Also, if they didn't have at least a slight bit of doubt they probably wouldn't feel the need to debate and discuss these topics with people of other backgrounds. I know doubt is what made me stumble on this site, anyway. So they reach a conclusion based upon feeling rather than logic, therefore they are arrogant? And I'm not getting into which religion is the right one as of now(in fact I was only giving a pointer), but I've got no doubt most of them have the same feeling. They could very well have that feeling which does let God show himself at least to the individual, but misinterpret which God it is. Still doesn't make them arrogant.By the way, I read that post from 'laserman' or whoever. The way that's set up I'm sure he's got some serious subconscious doubt about his faith, so he's rallying behind it for everything he's got. I don't know if you ever were into organized religion, but it's really hard to have it torn down in front of you. That's why people come on here to try and defend it; not just for others but for their own peace of spirit.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying what I'm saying. But in all seriousness, the Bible also talks about the flesh which does its share in deception and doubt. We're all supposed to have it even after our Rebirth, so I guess we all have some doubt according to scripture, huh?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.