What makes you unbelieve Crash ?

I was thinking more SETI, search for extra terrestrial intelligence (hope thats what it stands for ). You know, those guys who scan the universe for easter bunnies and santa claus. Well, my point is, if you seek evidence in order to believe in God you would then call it personal evidence. Because it is evidence that would satisfy you personally as to God's existence. However, what if you did think of something that would satisfy you, and MrH came along with his MN whip, and said that infact it is not evidence of God?So you see, evidence can be negotiable, and many would still not believe, and your personal evidence would sink, and eventually be forgotten. Take off the worldview glasses you have on for a moment, and think about it. I hope you'll see the point.

Explain further and I might take heed.Are you saying that I am biased because I am somehow making them hits and won't admitt to none hits? I am aware that my prayers are insufficient for you - however, I am the witness, and for me they are sufficient. Especially in the way they have happened.If you conclude my "hits" are coincidence fair enough. I've only ever touted them as personal evidence. I am willing to admitt that I may unwittingly suffer a small level of response bias, I assume everybody believer might, but i don't think it can get rid of the "hits" - especially when they are independant of me - as in, if I prayed for freedom and I was free the next day, that is not something that bias would effect.Prayer studies are also insufficient, in that - God could add or take away too much hydrochloric acid. IOW, he might not want to play, especially if he knows that these are studies. Prayer is not just for asking for things so we can study results. But many have been healed. I have seen many testimonies of God taking action and has also taken action with me. "If they do not believe Moses, then they will not believe even if one rose from the dead". The bible also states that unbelief is the problem.

But what if evidence for God is the universe? Or the earth? Or the stars? Or you?You see, it is only opinion that tells us these things cannot be evidence. CANNOT? Says who?Tell me now MrH, what would be your personal evidence? Oh? I thought it concluded none-existence? now it ignores it. So then why not just ignore this topic? It is your opinion that God doesn't exist. Many would conclude from nature that he does exist. Even I do, and WHO is to say otherwise that I should listen to THEIR opinion?
So I ask again, what would be your personal evidence? You can't have it both ways. If you say MN concludes his none-existence then tell me NOW what evidence would conclude it. I say that to the hell bent on being athiest, closed minded dis-contents - NO EVIDENCE would conclude it.

Lol, not exactly. But if one prayer comes true it's kind of easy to remember. Also, the last prayers in which I have asked for things are easy to remember. It is not often I would ask for something, however a recent example was a woman who asked for believers to pray for her family. Her son was being bullied because he was a believer and so we prayed, and indeed we believed - I myself, with great belief and fervor, and those bullies became Christians the next day. That's one prayer I can remember. Though what I remember mostly is the belief I had at the time. So get back Schrafinator -- get back to the truth. Stop seeking Godless journeys -- get back. - and get off that horse!

Well, nature is an example of my personal evidence. My point being that my personal opinion of the evidence is the same as your personal opinion of the evidence. MN makes conclusions about that which it testable. You conclude no God and I conclude God.You said that MN concludes no God. I personally, think that science (MN)- doesn't have a view on God. Tapeworm? Hardly takes away the meaning of life does it? Unless you let it. Besides, I'll take this route in order to get back on topic....If you have an enemy like tapeworm in your body, who said with prayer you can be healed? - I'll let you figure that one out. Fair enough. Ofcourse, nature is one example of a personal evidence of my own. To me, nature implies God, hence the personal in evidence.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-15-2004]

Did you miss the part where I said enemy?
Yes, God created the worm, and yes - God can take the worm away. In this book we call the bible, it says the enemy is satan. Christ did not come to cast out God. No illness is given us by God - it in no way glorifies him. It is clever that satan should escape your thoughts so craftily. Please Sir, do not attempt to put words in my mouth at this stage of the game. God is the antithesis of unfair, Again the enemy escapes you - he has been very succesful with you. Seemingly bad things in nature, can be easily explained biblically. The "ground is cursed for your sake". If satan is also on the ground aswell as sin........maybe Brad understands.

Well, I didn't expect to get through to you anyway. I made this topic out of interest in Crash's position and also for those who are unbelievers who think we should think in a similar way to themselves concerning answered prayer. Obviously you and Lam are on a different level, maybe you are higher evolved and cannot possibly discuss this further with the likes of me. Thats okay.I like the way Lam was honest about his position.

Ofcourse, he may well see it as unacceptable for humans to treat him like an experiment because of unbelief. Isn't it a better thing if he simply heals and deals with those who need him rather than act for a "show" to satisfy unbelievers. I know you are not convinced. I like to see "unfalsifiable" as equal to logically sound. Why do you need to falsify it? You are again making this out to be some kind of scientific endeavour. Belief is the key. I could also say that they show no belief. Christ says the problem is unbelief. It doesn't matter what prayer studies show. However, I watched a study on TV which did not conclude "no effect". Therefore, some studies might show effect some might not. The one I watched shown "some" effect. I still do not think God would volunteer for such things. On the program, one man was asked to pray and took offense because he was a hardened atheist. Do you really think God would have answered his prayer? Maybe you forget what it says about prayer in the bible. It vehemently insists in belief. I severly doubt that that man's forced prayer meant anything to God as he obviously doesn't believe in God.

Neil, if a human was eaten by a lion, would that mean God is the doer of that evil thing? Or would you just see it as an unfortunate occurence?I myself would not blame God for creating the lion. This is a common mistake amongst unbelievers. You see, if you catch tapeworm from eating pork you must first realize this:God said do not eat swine in the Old Testament, and
God created the tapeworm - yes! But did he intend it for humans? - No. Did he intend the lions to eat humans - No. Does it kill the host? When the host is dead, does it die?The question is - is the parasite designed to LIVE IN humans or does it HAPPEN to live in them! "and thorns began to grow from the tree" ---> "the ground shall be cursed for your sake"The parasite might be designed yes, but it is not designed to inhabit humans - it is satan who would use it. Christ CAST OUT all manner of disease, as surely as he would Malaria.God does not cast out God, Christ came to cast out illnesses and satan. I noticed as soon as I gave satan the blame - mrHambre left the debate, and also Lam. I wonder.....why they leave when I mention satan, I mean, Christ always spoke of satan as the enemy and yet you expect me to blame God for illnesses when he heals us,Lol.

Ahahahaha...Keep riding that tapeworm Brad! {'_'}I thought silly putty was a pinky for your slinky only when harvested twinkies are slightly dinky and the chunky chicken taster pasters are contrary in my prairy?

Well this is it isn't it? You cannot really apply prayer to science, because Christ himself says that it is about belief. You see "blessed are those who believe when they have not seen". Someone said something once that I vaguely remember,(Percy I think) yet it holds water. He said Christ was most impressed by faith, and by those who have it when it seems there is nothing.(similar words) I know you are scientific, and I cannot offer you any evidence other than a testimony which I know is true, nor do I seek to "prove" God to you.I have already said in message one, that it has now went beyond chance. I cannot say I have been healed, nor anything super-sensational, in order to impress. I seek not to lie about it. I may have this "bias" you talk about yet it is connected to belief. Those who would not believe when the chips are down are described in the parable of the sower "the worries of this world overcome the word" (similar words). How can I prove my prayers are answered? - Simple, I can't. My words will only be sufficient for me, because I seek not to lead you down the garden path.Christ said believe, he did not say gather evidence. So I feel you cannot understand what I preach. I can only recommend that you search what you have previously overlooked as chance. If chance can explain my prayers - fine, I have no problem with that!! WHY? - Is that what you think?Think not that I seek evidence or to convince you with it. I will accept it if you only see it as chance, think not that that will cause me unbelief. Can you see my point yet?I must go now, I have my motorcycle training early tomorrow, the word said today to me, "Put on the helmet of salvation". Rather fitting don't you think! (hidden puns included).[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-22-2004]

Well, the difference is that I am a witness to events. I (personally) can myself, only deduce that the events are not merely chance. You are right, I have no way of absolutely knowing via evidence etc. But - yet I know. It is the belief itself that makes me know. That is why my prayer examples will never be enough for to convince you, nor would I intend it. You see, the belief is the key.I know the O.P might look like I am trying to convince people my prayers are true. That was just an added input because of the Crashfrog quote. The other day - I must now add, (as it really did happen). I prayed for God to guide me in something - and he did not do it. Or he didn't immediately anyway - It can be recorded as a "no" or a "none-answer" if you want. It's not that I pick and choose - as I have now offered an example of how you can now choose unbelief, because I have just recorded an example which may cast doubt. You see, my only choice is to believe.Do not for a moment think that I am against accumulation of facts. I will choose the discomforting truth over the comfortable fantasy, yet I am comfortably numb. Creationism doesn't mean much to me anymore. I am more inclined to take the unbarable hard uncomfortable facts of science, and if they suggest no God, you'll find me believing all the more. The point to this topic is belief. I am not even against evidence. You have sufficiently explained to me how methodology is the best way, and how science is reliable. But are you mixing the two (science and belief) where it isn't needed?People often seek evidence that God is real. I'm not against you also seeking this or seeking proof of prayer. I am even happy for you to dismiss my talk as fantasy. What else could you do scientifically?I think the belief you did have can still be re-captured, regardless of methodologies. In the NT, it is made so very obvious that it is the faith and belief which is required. Ignore me.Edited, to clarify my vagueness.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-26-2004]

Then preach it in the science section. This is faith and belief. And by the way, I'll believe in what I darn well want.A theistic outlook is not an arrogant dismissal. If anything, we don't dismiss. It is you who dismiss possibilities, because of your limited newbie brain. Pink exists, so do elephants, so do planets and so does Neptune etc. How this bares relevance to theists is beyond me. Just how much did you "make" these things up? Yes, you said it - flawed. Infact, I doubt a human could come up with or = God, especially with your example of human thought/none-thought.Theists have concepts yet God is not their idea. Certainly nowaday Theists have not "made" God up, and you cannot prove their predecessors did. God also cannot be compared logically relevant to "pink elephants" or any other realities you stick together. I can also make silly statements:Mutating Spock insect.Now, show me how it bares logical relevance to God, who you cannot prove was invented. We can make plenty of other things up, usually from realities we find around us, "easter bunny" "Father Christmas". God is literally and totally different from these things. He is not taken from two realities and stuck together by a feeble human brain."Tatooed Brad monkey"And if you insist upon these statements then you must realize they are taken from realities. So effectively - you are saying God is reality.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-26-2004]

Well said Queen! Here here!<< Asgara fan. [This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-27-2004]

Brother 1.61803
Thanks for sharing that with me. I guess what matters is that you did pray - and therefore you opened your mind to that possibility. Whether it was a coincidence or an answered prayer is up to you. I personally believe it was answered. These things are very similar to what I have experienced, and I have had many prayers answered. I choose to believe that it has gone beyond chance. Keep praying my friend!