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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
Strawman
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 329 (9960)
05-19-2002 3:37 PM


>Pls do, but my point is you DON'T KNOW what to accept as truth or >not. Therefore it is JUST opinion.
What we accept and don't accept concerning Christianity is either our choice or we 'talk' to God about it.
Usually, Christians don't 'talk' or pray to God about certain things and they take their own opinion on the matter. Which is one of the reasons this religion has a bad rep.

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by nator, posted 05-19-2002 7:54 PM Strawman has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 138 of 329 (9968)
05-19-2002 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Strawman
05-19-2002 3:37 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Strawman:
>Pls do, but my point is you DON'T KNOW what to accept as truth or >not. Therefore it is JUST opinion.
What we accept and don't accept concerning Christianity is either our choice or we 'talk' to God about it.
Usually, Christians don't 'talk' or pray to God about certain things and they take their own opinion on the matter. Which is one of the reasons this religion has a bad rep.

If Christians "talk to God" or anything like that, that is their own business and I do not begrudge anyone the religious practice of their choice. In fact, I think it is a crucial civil liberty that all Americans are free to worship as they choose.
One big reason certain stripes of Christianity (mostly in the US) get a bad rep in the education, scientific, civil liberties, and religious communities is because they wish to force their religious views upon everyone else by having them taught in public school science classrooms.
They are attempting to dress their religion up in a lab coat and give it a beaker to hold in the hopes that they will get it taught alongside, or even instead of, real science.
To anyone interested in intellectual honesty and true scholarship and discovery, this tactic is offensive and demeaning to science and religion both.
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Strawman, posted 05-19-2002 3:37 PM Strawman has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 329 (10034)
05-20-2002 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Percy
05-13-2002 4:17 PM


Originally posted by Percipient:
The Bible is full of both history and myth. Much of it is about real places and real events, much of it is not.
***Please feel free to point out both.......if you can.***Jet
Originally posted by Percipient:
There is no evidence consistent with the six days of Creation, and no geological evidence of a world-wide flood ever, let alone within the last 10,000 years.
***Major Tinman Percy!***Jet
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
http://www.trueorigin.org/arkdefen.asp
***I would suppose that you are able to offer all the necessary evidence, (studies, data, reports, etc.), to support such an outlandish statement while negating any and all or the contrary evidence.***Jet
***Answer this question, if you are able. Why do earths societies differ on the number of days in a month as well as differ in the number of months in a year but all are in agreement of a seven day week? Could it possibly have something to do with the six days of creation plus a day of rest that God ordained in Genesis?
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm!
***Jet
Shalom
------------------
"If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough, and often enough, the people will believe it." Adolf Hitler.......Darwinian Evolutionist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Percy, posted 05-13-2002 4:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Joe Meert, posted 05-20-2002 12:37 PM Jet has replied
 Message 146 by Mister Pamboli, posted 05-20-2002 2:10 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 05-27-2002 2:02 PM Jet has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 329 (10035)
05-20-2002 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Percy
05-13-2002 7:01 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Percipient:
Getting back to the original question, if science is based upon building frameworks of understand around bodies of information and evidence, while your approach is based upon revelation, prayer and reflection, then how can you claim your views should be taught as science?
--Percy

***Please refer me to the post where I stated that "my views" should be taught as science.***Jet
Shalom
------------------
"If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough, and often enough, the people will believe it." Adolf Hitler.......Darwinian Evolutionist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Percy, posted 05-13-2002 7:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Percy, posted 05-27-2002 2:08 PM Jet has replied

Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 141 of 329 (10036)
05-20-2002 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Jet
05-20-2002 12:31 PM


quote:
***Answer this question, if you are able. Why do earths societies differ on the number of days in a month as well as differ in the number of months in a year but all are in agreement of a seven day week? Could it possibly have something to do with the six days of creation plus a day of rest that God ordained in Genesis?
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm!
***Jet
JM: Yes and no. You assertion that the 7-day Christian week likely had its roots in the Bible is correct. Your assertion that this was always agreed on is false. A few examples:
The ancient Egyptians used a 10-day "week", as did the French Revolutionary calendar.
The Maya calendar uses a 13 and a 20-day "week" (see Mayan calendar).
The Soviet Union used both a 5-day and a 6-day week. In 1929-30 the USSR gradually introduced a 5-day week. Every worker had one day off every week, but there was no fixed day of rest. On 1 September 1931 this was replaced by a 6-day week with a fixed day of rest, falling on the 6th, 12th, 18th, 24th, and 30th day of each month (1 March was used instead of the 30th day of February, and the last day of months with 31 days was considered an extra working day outside the normal 6-day week cycle). A return to the normal 7-day week was decreed on 26 June 1940.
Lithuanians used week of nine days before adopting Cristianity.
Cheers
Joe Meert
[This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 05-20-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:31 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:58 PM Joe Meert has replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 329 (10037)
05-20-2002 12:47 PM


One of the biggest questions I have of late is why do evolutionists feel so threatened by the teaching of creation? If evolution has so much evidence, and creation has so little, (or none, as some so boldly claim), then I would think that evolutionists would not only agree to, but would actively encourage the practice of teaching both creation and evolution side by side so that the evolutionists could show everyone just how right they are and just how wrong the creationists are. Leaning on that tired old "creation isn't science" argument doesn't wash anymore than saying "evolution is science."
http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/EvolutionIsNotScience_f.htm
Jet
Shalom
------------------
"If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough, and often enough, the people will believe it." Adolf Hitler.......Darwinian Evolutionist

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Joe Meert, posted 05-20-2002 12:57 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 147 by nator, posted 05-20-2002 11:52 PM Jet has replied

Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 143 of 329 (10038)
05-20-2002 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jet
05-20-2002 12:47 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jet:
[B]One of the biggest questions I have of late is why do evolutionists feel so threatened by the teaching of creation? If evolution has so much evidence, and creation has so little, (or none, as some so boldly claim), then I would think that evolutionists would not only agree to, but would actively encourage the practice of teaching both creation and evolution side by side so that the evolutionists could show everyone just how right they are and just how wrong the creationists are. Leaning on that tired old "creation isn't science" argument doesn't wash anymore than saying "evolution is science." [/QUOTE]
JM: What makes you think they oppose teaching creationism? I've taught ye-creationism in my class and I know many others who do as well. It fits perfectly in my course "How to think about weird things" and other peoples "Philosophy of Science" courses. Since ye-creationism has no scientific value, it would be a waste of time, money and effort to discuss it at length in scientific courses. There is already too little science being taught as it is and if we water it down further with pseudoscience, then we do our society a great disfavor.
Cheers
Joe Meert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:47 PM Jet has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 329 (10039)
05-20-2002 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Joe Meert
05-20-2002 12:37 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Joe Meert:

JM: Yes and no. You assertion that the 7-day week likely had its roots in the Bible is correct. Your assertion that this was always agreed on is false. A few examples:
The ancient Egyptians used a 10-day "week", as did the French Revolutionary calendar.
The Maya calendar uses a 13 and a 20-day "week" (see Mayan calendar).
The Soviet Union used both a 5-day and a 6-day week. In 1929-30 the USSR gradually introduced a 5-day week. Every worker had one day off every week, but there was no fixed day of rest. On 1 September 1931 this was replaced by a 6-day week with a fixed day of rest, falling on the 6th, 12th, 18th, 24th, and 30th day of each month (1 March was used instead of the 30th day of February, and the last day of months with 31 days was considered an extra working day outside the normal 6-day week cycle). A return to the normal 7-day week was decreed on 26 June 1940.
Lithuanians used week of nine days before adopting Cristianity.
Cheers
Joe Meert

Interesting information! Thanks Joe!
However, the question still stands. Even in non-Christian, non-Judaic, and non-Muslim nations, a seven day week has been adopted. Why? Is there some reason other than a Judeo-Christian influence? Is it astronomically valid to adopt a five day, ten day, or twenty day week versus a seven day week? If not, why not? If so, then why the seemingly universal adoption of a seven day week?
Jet
Shalom
------------------
"If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough, and often enough, the people will believe it." Adolf Hitler.......Darwinian Evolutionist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Joe Meert, posted 05-20-2002 12:37 PM Joe Meert has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Joe Meert, posted 05-20-2002 1:19 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 148 by nator, posted 05-20-2002 11:59 PM Jet has replied
 Message 154 by joz, posted 05-28-2002 1:25 PM Jet has not replied

Joe Meert
Member (Idle past 5679 days)
Posts: 913
From: Gainesville
Joined: 03-02-2002


Message 145 of 329 (10041)
05-20-2002 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Jet
05-20-2002 12:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:

Interesting information! Thanks Joe!
However, the question still stands. Even in non-Christian, non-Judaic, and non-Muslim nations, a seven day week has been adopted. Why? Is there some reason other than a Judeo-Christian influence? Is it astronomically valid to adopt a five day, ten day, or twenty day week versus a seven day week? If not, why not? If so, then why the seemingly universal adoption of a seven day week?

JM: What do you mean by 'astronomically valid'? As far as I can tell, there is nothing 'astronomically valid' about a 7-day week. Perhaps you can explain what you mean? As for why the 7-day week is adopted by many countries, it is likely due to economic reasons rather than religious ones. Originally, the 7-day week was avoided because 7 was considered unlucky! In fact, one text considers the 7 day week to have originated with paganism and it was later adopted by Christians (one day each for the Sun, Moon and the five known planets). Heck the names of some of the days are quite pagan. If true, the question might be better phrased as "Why did Christians adopt a pagan week"? Thor's day is my favorite.
Cheers
Joe Meert
[This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 05-20-2002]
[This message has been edited by Joe Meert, 05-20-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:58 PM Jet has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7576 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 146 of 329 (10043)
05-20-2002 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Jet
05-20-2002 12:31 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
***Answer this question, if you are able. Why do earths societies differ on the number of days in a month as well as differ in the number of months in a year but all are in agreement of a seven day week? Could it possibly have something to do with the six days of creation plus a day of rest that God ordained in Genesis?
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm!
***Jet

Joe has pointed out the exceptions ot the rule, but I suppose you wonder why there may be a rule in the first place?
Firstly you should note that simply because we in the west have chosen to subdivide the calendar at this particular granularity it does not follow that other civilisations would necessarily do so. In the past even western societies had a variety of week lengths from 4 to 10 days.
The Babylonians divided the phases of the moon into 4 major subdivisions of 7 days - a lunar cycle of 28 days starting with the first visible crescent and ending with the last visible cresecent. The remaining 1.53 days of the cycle regarded as quite separate, with some admirable logic: how could discuss the state fo the moon when it was invisible - it might not even exist at that time, and its reappearance could be cancelled by an angry God?
Aulus Gellius points out another feature of the 7 day cycle that would have been of enormous importance to the numerologically-fascinated early civilisations: 4 seven day cycles make 28 days, and the factorial (as we would now call) of 7 is 28. SO for the ancients there was a mystical relationship between these two issues - the moon travelled its visible course in 28 days and the main phases of this course contained within themselves a reflection of the overall unity of the cycle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:31 PM Jet has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 147 of 329 (10080)
05-20-2002 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jet
05-20-2002 12:47 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
One of the biggest questions I have of late is why do evolutionists feel so threatened by the teaching of creation? If evolution has so much evidence, and creation has so little, (or none, as some so boldly claim), then I would think that evolutionists would not only agree to, but would actively encourage the practice of teaching both creation and evolution side by side so that the evolutionists could show everyone just how right they are and just how wrong the creationists are. Leaning on that tired old "creation isn't science" argument doesn't wash anymore than saying "evolution is science."
http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/EvolutionIsNotScience_f.htm
Jet
Shalom

OK, let's say that Protestant Christian Creation is taught alongside science in a science classroom. Why not teach Native American Creation in the science classroom? Or Shinto Creation stories? Or Roman, Australian Aboriginal, or Egyptian Creation?
After all, since Protestant Christian Creationism is based in what the Bible says, and what the Bible says holds ultimate sway over any natural evidence which might be discovered, then any other religion's creation story is as supported as any other.
Now, if you are suggesting that Creation Science be taught about in, say, a class which discusses the nature of scientific inquiry, a philosophy of science class, or in a comparative religion class, then I think it is a great idea and will clearly demonstrate that Creation 'science' is quite lacking as an actual science but is strong as a very effective marketing tool for the far right Christian political wing.
Creation 'science' isn't real science. It violates the tenets of scientific inquiry. You have, in the past, been directed to much more information which explains this in great detail. Here is, yet again, a good definition of science. You will also find an internal link which will take you to another essay which explains how Creation 'science' breaks the rules of science. I hope you will actually address the specifics of these links this time instead of waving them away and avoiding them.
http://www.skepdic.com/science.html
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:47 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Jet, posted 05-27-2002 1:37 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 329 (10081)
05-20-2002 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Jet
05-20-2002 12:58 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:

Interesting information! Thanks Joe!
However, the question still stands. Even in non-Christian, non-Judaic, and non-Muslim nations, a seven day week has been adopted. Why? Is there some reason other than a Judeo-Christian influence? Is it astronomically valid to adopt a five day, ten day, or twenty day week versus a seven day week? If not, why not? If so, then why the seemingly universal adoption of a seven day week?
Jet
Shalom

Gee, somehow the idea that the seven day week was adopted by everyone because the more powerful people came in and converted everyone to their religion doesn't seem very mysterious to me.
In addition, the Church was freaking rich and if I'm not mistaken, controlled and funded a great deal of trade and commerce. It would make sense to adopt the week structure that your most powerful customer used so you could coordinate business with them.
Are you really asking why everyone has the same week structure now?? Trade and commerce!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:58 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Jet, posted 05-27-2002 2:01 PM nator has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 329 (10418)
05-27-2002 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by nator
05-20-2002 11:52 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:
[B] OK, let's say that Protestant Christian Creation is taught alongside science in a science classroom. Why not teach Native American Creation in the science classroom? Or Shinto Creation stories? Or Roman, Australian Aboriginal, or Egyptian Creation?
After all, since Protestant Christian Creationism is based in what the Bible says, and what the Bible says holds ultimate sway over any natural evidence which might be discovered, then any other religion's creation story is as supported as any other.
***Your point is well taken and valid, to be sure. All of the above are as rooted in history as is the erroneous concept of evolution.***Jet
schraf: Creation 'science' isn't real science. It violates the tenets of scientific inquiry.......Creation 'science' breaks the rules of science.
***I believe this has been discussed at length already. But in case your memory needs refreshing, then visit...................
http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/EvolutionIsNotScience_f.htm
Your "real science" argument reveals the so-called science of the TOE to be full of holes.***Jet
schraf: http://www.skepdic.com/science.html
***Actually, I have already bookmarked the skepdic site, as well as a number of others. I am never opposed to examining all sides of an issue, even when I am convinced that one side, (in this case, the argument for evolution), is so full of errors, misinformation, and outright lies that it is, without a doubt, completely inane.***Jet
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough, and often enough, the people will believe it." Adolf Hitler.......Darwinian Evolutionist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by nator, posted 05-20-2002 11:52 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by nator, posted 06-02-2002 7:27 PM Jet has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 329 (10420)
05-27-2002 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by nator
05-20-2002 11:59 PM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
Gee, somehow the idea that the seven day week was adopted by everyone because the more powerful people came in and converted everyone to their religion doesn't seem very mysterious to me.
In addition, the Church was freaking rich and if I'm not mistaken, controlled and funded a great deal of trade and commerce. It would make sense to adopt the week structure that your most powerful customer used so you could coordinate business with them.
Are you really asking why everyone has the same week structure now?? Trade and commerce!!!

***You must have absolutely loved the movie "Conspiracy Theory"***Jet
Shalom
Jet
------------------
"If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough, and often enough, the people will believe it." Adolf Hitler.......Darwinian Evolutionist
"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of his reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about
to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over
the final rock, he is greeted by a small band of theologians, who have been sitting there for centuries."
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by nator, posted 05-20-2002 11:59 PM nator has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 151 of 329 (10421)
05-27-2002 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Jet
05-20-2002 12:31 PM


You're ignoring the issue about your signoff. I raised the issue because I felt it was offensive and inflammatory. You've had, and still have, the opportunity to justify it, during which period you may continue to use it, but if you choose not to respond to inquiries then I must ask you to remove or modify the signoff or risk suspension of posting privileges.
--Percy
   EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Jet, posted 05-20-2002 12:31 PM Jet has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Jet, posted 05-28-2002 1:12 PM Percy has replied

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