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Author Topic:   Don't get it (Re: Ape to Man - where did the hair go?)
rineholdr
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 116 (103382)
04-28-2004 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
03-30-2004 8:04 PM


I believe your a jerk for making comments to this gentleman like you have...you attitude alone makes it hard to respect your opinion. He wasn't rude in the way, he just asked the questions...just wanted someone to help him understand. You in turn insult him personnaly and us profanity to do so. I judge folks intelligence by the words they use and profanity just shows you havent the intellect to chose a better word to express yourself, and you just closed the window on my respect of your ability to have an open mind. Not that you would care much what I think but...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2004 8:04 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by coffee_addict, posted 04-28-2004 2:02 PM rineholdr has not replied
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2004 6:17 PM rineholdr has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 116 (103383)
04-28-2004 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by pbaylis
04-28-2004 1:47 AM


Summary
pbaylis,
There is an utlra marathon run in the middle of Death Valley, with temps exceeding 110 degrees F. The race is 135 miles long. The records for the course are listed below--
Course records: Men’s: Anatoli Kruglikov, 2000, Russia, 25:09:05. Women’s: Pam Reed, 2002, USA, 27:56:47
I would say that humans are well adapted to running long distances (135 miles in about a day) in very hot conditions (110+ F). Being that humans would have been running on a regular basis to capture prey it is not unreasonable to assume that they were in better physical condition than we humans today (especially in the US).
Your argument that humans can not run long distances in the heat is refuted.
Secondly, humans can run down herbivores in the heat. There are first hand observations that back this up. Again, another "point" for my position.
So, to sum up, no other primate that I no of runs down prey over extended distances in order to eat them. All other primates have more hair than we do. Evaporative cooling is increased with less hair. Increased evaporative cooling could allow a primate to run over extended periods, exceeding the length of time prey species can run without succumbing to heat exhaustion. Therefore, minimal hair coverage allows humans to run for extended periods of time which allows them to catch prey that can outrun them in the short term. Hair loss is an advantage in the open savanna of Africa. Advantages are kept within a population due to natural selection.
Also, increased brain power is also an advantage given to us by our genetic makeup. It is no different than sharp teeth for predators or agility for herbivorse for escaping predators. It is our adaptation, and a very good one to boot. Our intelligence has allowed us to live in every climate on earth, which overcomes our hairlessness as a disadvantage in colder climes. There is no need for humans to become hairier in colder climes, especially given the fact that increased subcutaneous fat is a much better adaptation (as seen with Eskimos in Alaska).
[This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 04-28-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by pbaylis, posted 04-28-2004 1:47 AM pbaylis has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 93 of 116 (103385)
04-28-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by rineholdr
04-28-2004 1:52 PM


rineholdr writes:
I believe your a jerk for making comments to this gentleman like you have...you attitude alone makes it hard to respect your opinion. He wasn't rude in the way, he just asked the questions...just wanted someone to help him understand. You in turn insult him personnaly and us profanity to do so. I judge folks intelligence by the words they use and profanity just shows you havent the intellect to chose a better word to express yourself, and you just closed the window on my respect of your ability to have an open mind. Not that you would care much what I think but...
Just because you're a gentleman doesn't mean you are intelligent. I judge people on their reading comprehension and how ready they are to new ideas. Just read more of Froggy's posts and compare those to pbaylis'. Anyone with a decent reading comprehension skill would notice that the frog is far better at presenting his argument than pbaylis.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by rineholdr, posted 04-28-2004 1:52 PM rineholdr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Loudmouth, posted 04-28-2004 2:07 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 116 (103389)
04-28-2004 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by coffee_addict
04-28-2004 2:02 PM


Lam,
Just a friendly suggestion. Try to use evidence instead of insults when confronting posters who may not have the same background information as yourself. Sometimes it is better to take the high road, even when being insulted yourself. I have fallen in the trap of exchaning insults here on this site, but I try to avoid it at all costs. Frustration is never a good reason to abandon logic. Again, just a friendly suggestion from a non-admin regular poster. No reply nor extended discussion needed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by coffee_addict, posted 04-28-2004 2:02 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 95 of 116 (103403)
04-28-2004 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Loudmouth
04-28-2004 2:07 PM


Good call Loudmouth. I'll keep that in mind.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
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Ooook!
Member (Idle past 5814 days)
Posts: 340
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-29-2003


Message 96 of 116 (103468)
04-28-2004 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by pbaylis
04-27-2004 10:40 PM


Hello pbaylis,
I appreciate that this post may have missed the boat somewhat (I never get round to joining in quickly enough) but I thought I'd stick my twopenneth in.
I think the hunting down prey on foot thing pretty much sums up the two adaptations you seem interested in (hair-loss and brain size). This method of hunting is still carried out by some tribes in Africa (I saw it documented on the telly but can't for the life of me remember the program name), and it fascinates me.
It's not simply one man running after an antelope, it requires teamwork. One man picks out a grazing animal and starts running after it. Naturally the animal easily outpaces the man over short distances but the man keeps dogging it, not letting it settle down and rest. As the animal is good over short distances, but not good at keeping a constant jog it will eventually get knackered. Of course the man chasing it is pretty creamed as well, and not really in any state to finish it off - this is where the other members of the team come in. There are two people tracking the chase at a more sedate pace, carrying spears and when they catch up....
My point is (eventually) that this kind of hunting is clearly tricky without the ability to keep cool (by sweat evaporation from a non-furry body) and inteligence (by the development of large brains). These adaptations clearly have advantages so why is it so hard to accept humans evolving from an hairy, grunting ancestor?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Loudmouth, posted 04-28-2004 6:02 PM Ooook! has replied
 Message 103 by TechnoCore, posted 05-02-2004 3:35 PM Ooook! has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 116 (103472)
04-28-2004 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Ooook!
04-28-2004 5:47 PM


quote:
These adaptations clearly have advantages so why is it so hard to accept humans evolving from an hairy, grunting ancestor?
I think the plausibility of an adaptive evolutionary pathway and the plausibility of man's ape ancestory are two different issues for most creationists. If we were talking about how a cat species lost its hair I would venture a guess that many creationists wouldn't argue (as long as the cat was still placed in the cat "kind" ).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Ooook!, posted 04-28-2004 5:47 PM Ooook! has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 98 of 116 (103480)
04-28-2004 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by rineholdr
04-28-2004 1:52 PM


he just asked the questions...just wanted someone to help him understand.
That's exactly the opposite of what he wanted, and it's clear from his post. What he wanted was to try to trap evolutionists in some kind of gotcha, and set up his personal incredulity as some kind of scientific obstacle.
If I was terse it was deliberate, in order to shock him out of his smug confidence that evolution was about to fall to such a simple question.
I don't particularly feel the need to be civil to people who aren't respectful. Nor do I feel that my intelligence has anything to fear from your impression of it. Moreover, if it turns out that I was wrong, and that the OP was simply an honest question with unfortunate wording, I'm more than ready to apologize.
Now, did you have an argument? Did you care to address the substance of my posts, instead of just the style?
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-28-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 116 (103507)
04-28-2004 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by WiseMan
03-30-2004 7:52 PM


If we supposedly evolved from the ape, where did all of the ape-like hair go.
Well, the hair is still there, modified slightly but still very much there.
What made us walk upright?
Moving around on the ground and grazing in the lower tree branches would be possibilities. In addition, the higher we could hold our heads, the better chance we could have to see dangers.
It seems to me that there had to be something that lasted a very long period of time in order to cause us to evolve.
Very good. I think you have made a break through. It did take a long, long time. And not all of the attempts worked. If you look back, you will find a long lineage that led, step by step from a very apelike creature whose spine entered at the rear of the skull to ones where the spine entered verticaly at the base of the skull.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Ooook!
Member (Idle past 5814 days)
Posts: 340
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-29-2003


Message 100 of 116 (103671)
04-29-2004 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Loudmouth
04-28-2004 6:02 PM


If we were talking about how a cat species lost its hair I would venture a guess that many creationists wouldn't argue (as long as the cat was still placed in the cat "kind"
I agree, so much of this post will be a touch of preaching to the choir. It would be interesting to see the differences between two cat species listed and compared to the list of chimp/human differences.
There seems to be an invisible barrier errected by a lot of creationists between the other apes and humans. To me, the differences are really not too large to be explained by (relatively) small genetic changes and plausible selective pressures.
The title of this thread seems to demonstrate this quite well:
Why on earth is lack of thick hair a major stumbling block?
Likewise, why do upright walking and brain size pose a problem? The only thing I can think of is that they don't want to think that we are that similar: a touch of the "Urrghhh, horrible hairy ape!". If you look closely at our ape cousins, you see how truly closely related we are.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 101 of 116 (103705)
04-29-2004 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Ooook!
04-29-2004 4:47 AM


hairless cats {and swimming cats}
the first hairless cats (or the most recent first hairless cats ...) were discovered in 1966
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In 1966 a domestic cat gave birth to a hairless kitten in Toronto, Canada. It was discovered to be a natural mutation and the Sphynx cat, as we know it today, came into existence. This cat and a few other naturally hairless cats have been found worldwide. These have magically been produced by Mother Nature and are the foundation for this unusual breed. Cat breeders in Europe and North America have bred the Sphynx to normal coated cats and then back to hairless for more than thirty years. The purpose of these selective breedings was to create a genetically sound cat with a large gene pool and hybrid vigor. This is a very robust breed with few health or genetic problems.
Looks like several different occurances so may be a common occurance in history as well? Genetic predisposition? Could the same occur in other species and all it takes is a natural selection event that favors 'hairless' over 'hairy' ...
{{add by edit}}
There is also a breed of 'swimming' cats:
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The coat lacks an undercoat and has a very unique cashmere-like texture that makes it water-resistant. This brings us to another interesting feature of this breed - they love water and in their native region they have been termed the Swimming Cats.
It is not hairless. {{end edit}}
enjoy
[This message has been edited by RAZD, 04-29-2004]

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 102 of 116 (104700)
05-02-2004 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
04-29-2004 10:25 AM


Re: hairless cats {and swimming cats}
Looks like evolution in action.

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TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 116 (104740)
05-02-2004 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Ooook!
04-28-2004 5:47 PM


The series you mention is "Life of Mammals" by BBC, with David Attenborough. I saw the episode last week. (It has also been on discovery channel, but I can't remeber the name of that series)
The hunter actually ran after an atilope for 8 hours, finally the antilope was so hot and tired it could no longer move. He just walked right up to it and put the spear right into its heart.
It can be bought here:
Access denied

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 104 of 116 (104744)
05-02-2004 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
04-29-2004 10:25 AM


Re: hairless cats {and swimming cats}
That cat looks somewhat like a rat. Is it possible that the cats and the rats are finally beginning to agree to live in peace? In some past human traditions, in order to end a bloody war, each side would marry their prince and princess as a symbol of peace. The mother of that cat probably slept with a male rat

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 105 of 116 (104853)
05-03-2004 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by coffee_addict
05-02-2004 4:01 PM


Re: hairless cats {and swimming cats}We
Well according to the aquatic ape theory we can expect the 'turkish van' to loose it's fur and start walking on it's hind legs, while we need to apply some remedial therapy to the 'sphynx' cats to get them into the water ... something seems to have gone terribly wrong here!
LOL

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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