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Author Topic:   What are common creationist strawmen?
Parasomnium
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Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 14 of 31 (105478)
05-05-2004 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by coffee_addict
05-05-2004 1:12 AM


TOE for life only?
The theory of evolution only apply to living things.
Are you sure, Lam? I have made a computer programme that uses the principles of random mutation and um... some sort of selection (since it is in the computer I can't very well call it natural selection, can I?), to let a population of possible but not very effective solutions to a certain problem evolve towards a population of highly effective solutions. (The problem in question is that of the 'Traveling Salesman', you probably know it.) Although I would like to take credit for creating life inside my computer, I realise it's an untenable position. Nevertheless, I think it proves that the theory of evolution can be applied to non-living systems.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 05-05-2004 1:12 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by JonF, posted 05-05-2004 10:33 AM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 21 by coffee_addict, posted 05-05-2004 2:00 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 18 of 31 (105519)
05-05-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by JonF
05-05-2004 10:33 AM


Re: TOE for life only?
If I wanted to get really, really pedantic (and why would I want that?) I could first point out that I used the word 'principles' initially, in the second sentence of my message to Lam, and secondly that the possibility of applying a theory outside it's original domain means that, from then on, it encompasses a larger domain. The theory of evolution is no longer just a theory about life, but a theory about how complex systems in general, of which life is a prime example, can evolve.
But of course I do not want to get really, really pedantic.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by coffee_addict, posted 05-05-2004 11:32 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 20 of 31 (105528)
05-05-2004 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by coffee_addict
05-05-2004 11:32 AM


Re: TOE for life only?
While in the shower and brushing my teeth, I actually thought up of some reasons why I still stand by my statement that ToE only apply to living things.
What happened? My arguments went down the drain?

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

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 Message 19 by coffee_addict, posted 05-05-2004 11:32 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 22 of 31 (105635)
05-05-2004 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by coffee_addict
05-05-2004 2:00 PM


Re: TOE for life only?
Based on your reasoning, the theory of gravity also apply to things that doesn't have mass, like those objects in my program. That is nonsense.
Lam, you disappoint me. Your analogy is flawed, surely you must realise you are mixing levels here. Those objects in your programme didn’t have real mass, but they had something more appropriate for a simulation of gravity, namely a simulated mass. That’s why the programme could tell you how those objects would interact if they were real world objects with real mass. Just as real gravity doesn’t have an effect on the simulated objects in your programme, the simulation of gravity doesn’t have an effect on the real objects on your desk. Like I said, you are mixing levels.
Going back to your program, it is not carrying out evolution. It is only demonstrating how evolution occur using certain concepts and mechanisms of evolution. In other words, computer simulations do not count.
Well, there is an important difference between gravity and evolution. On the one hand, gravity cannot be implemented on a computer, because you cannot put real mass into a programme. The best you can do is a simulation. Evolution, on the other hand, basically deals with information, which makes it perfectly possible to implement it on a computer, because you can put real information into a programme.
I start with a set of itineraries of poor quality, in that each and every one of them will send the travelling salesman all over the place, making him travel longer than necessary. They are of poor quality because they are randomly generated. Then I let my programme do it’s thing on those itineraries and I end up with a population of them in which each is much more efficient than any one in the original set. Real poor quality information has evolved into real high quality information. So my programme is not merely a simulation of an evolution, it is actually carrying one out.
Besides your computer, which I have shown that you can't use a computer simulation to "prove" certain parts of the theories to be wrong []
I’m sorry, but I think you haven’t even come close to showing this.
[] can you think of anything nonliving that also exhibit the same characteristics described by the theory of evolution?
Yes. Memes.
By the way, I am sure I thought of at least 5 other reasons why your logic is flawed when I was brushing my teeth. For the life of me, I can't think of them now. Too much philosophical discussion on animal rights/interests makes you lose your ideas.
Either that, or brushing your teeth is dangerous for the brain.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by coffee_addict, posted 05-05-2004 2:00 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by coffee_addict, posted 05-05-2004 11:52 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 24 of 31 (105808)
05-06-2004 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by coffee_addict
05-05-2004 11:52 PM


Re: TOE for life only?
Sorry to disappoint you. I didn't know I was running for perfection or anything.
Don't be offended, Lam. I just think that your reasoning is flawed, which I find uncharacteristic, based on what I've seen from you so far.
I'm going to start another thread about this issue before I get banned by the bosses. This has absolutely nothing to do with this thread's topic.
How far can one stray from the path before it becomes 'off-topic'? The topic is common creationist strawmen. You mentioned the scrap heap argument as an example and commented that one of the reasons it doesn't hold water is that evolution only applies to living things. I objected to that line of thought with an example. I ask you now: how far off-topic are we? Aren't we still discussing the validity of one reason why a certain argument is or is not a strawman?
But if you want to create yet another thread, go ahead. I'll see you there.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by coffee_addict, posted 05-05-2004 11:52 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by coffee_addict, posted 05-06-2004 4:13 AM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 26 by coffee_addict, posted 05-06-2004 4:17 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 27 of 31 (105824)
05-06-2004 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by coffee_addict
05-06-2004 4:13 AM


Re: TOE for life only?
Lam, are you saying we can only stay on-topic here by disagreeing about something being a strawman or not? As soon as we agree on something being a strawman, anything we say is off-topic? The finer nuances of the matter, are they off-topic? I know you are straight thinking, but isn't this a bit over the top?
Although I realise that this meta-discussion about on- or off-topicness is really off-topic, I'd like a second opinion. AdminTL? Other Admins? Anyone?

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by coffee_addict, posted 05-06-2004 4:13 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 28 of 31 (105902)
05-06-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Parasomnium
05-06-2004 4:54 AM


bump...
Admins, what are the boundaries of a topic?
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 05-06-2004 10:11 AM

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Parasomnium, posted 05-06-2004 4:54 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by AdminAsgara, posted 05-06-2004 11:22 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 31 of 31 (105915)
05-06-2004 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by AdminAsgara
05-06-2004 11:22 AM


Re: bump...
I believe the issue of evolution and life/non-life is an interesting topic and should be taken to a more appropriate forum for discussion.
Ahem... http://EvC Forum: Can the theory of evolution be applied to non-living things?

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AdminAsgara, posted 05-06-2004 11:22 AM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
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