Where Did the Notion of God Come From??

EvC Forum: PHILOSOPHY IS KINGHere is the link for the explanation of chance by Willowtree. You must read it all to get the meaning. It's a long post but it will show you how chance is in no way beyond God.It was very lucky I could find this link, was it chance that I asked God for help and it happened quickly? Are you saying it is impossible for God to foresee my prayer? Didn't Christ himself prophecize?

I was accepting that a powerful diety could use chance, however that particular incidence points me directly to looking into the greek pantheon, (Athena would be an extremely good goddess for me (wisdom and war)) rather than a christian god.I have read what you wrote in my topic, and it encourages me that you did decide. I think though if i ever become a father, then i will try and keep my children as far as possible from religion, regardless of my beliefs (though this may seem strange if i start believing) I feel that it is far too easy for me to accept christianity, because that is how i was brought up. I would hope that by keeping them away from any possible indoctrination, when they reach an age where they can make their own decisions, then give them the choice.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

Ofcourse, your children are your business, and it would only be a wise choice to let them make their own minds. You have spoken well. I was brought up catholic. Yet when you learn about Christ and the NT, you realize that everyday people have no real idea about the actual teachings, and almost dismiss some important teachings.You see, I was tought that listening to a monotone priest and then confessing sins to him would please God, and if I visited church on Sundays I would go to heaven. I find that the true believers in the raw text are actually a rarity amongst the populas, in that --> Just "christian" is to actually have no religion, but rather a faith or even what some call a "relationship" with God. Afterall, Christ came to fulfill the law and so what do men do? - They go and make new rules.Not that all catholics aren't christian, I don't mean to imply this. My main point is that we all get brought up "with" certain things. It may seem "easy" to be christian, but if you read your NT you'll see that it is not easy - far from it, and no traditions of men can have any right or sole owning of God.You see, I hope you read the link, it shows how the God of Christ does work with chance. It's not a matter of "Oh I like the way this god of the lions uses chance". It is rather that "chance" is not an explanation for everything. It is a true thing "chance" but it is not always the case. It is only one aspect.

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I guaruntee grunting noises aren't enough to make life.

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I do love it when you're willfully obstinate Mike, it's such a treat.

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Also, surely people would make a female god if they saw that the life comes from the woman. They would see that the life comes from her each time. Or better still, they would make two gods, male and female. Why would it be that they came up with the non-obvious, instead of these two ideas?

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We see that birds are the ones who fly. Why isn't Superman a giant bird? Seems like the obvious thing to me.

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"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

But we also have a fantasy to fly. Ofcourse, we could make superman wings - but he might look a bit silly with red boots and feathered wings.Fact is, this is one of those debates that are literally based on speculation. It is a road to nowhere. Do you think I am stubborn Dan? Lol.

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But we also have a fantasy to fly. Ofcourse, we could make superman wings - but he might look a bit silly with red boots and feathered wings.

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I don't see why. Angel of the X-Men gets by. So does Hawkman.And of course, God could certainly be portrayed as having a midwife check how many centimeters he was dilating while he created the heavens and earth, and that'd be a bit silly too, wouldn't it?

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Fact is, this is one of those debates that are literally based on speculation.

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Speculation has nothing to do with it. The double standards you're trying to apply do.The original posted implied that it was impossible for people to have come up with the concept of God on their own. By the standards he was applying, it would have meant that it was impossible for people to come up with Superman on their own without Superman being real. So clearly his point was a bust.Then you came along with different set of standards, and showed how easy it would be to come up with Superman without Superman needing a basis in fact. (As, in fact, is the case.) And by your standards, it would also be incredibly easy to come up with God without God needing a basis in fact. But then you keep turning and applying the original poster's standards to God, while reserving your second set of standards for any other story.So which is it? Is it perfectly reasonable to think that Superman might be fiction, or is it absolutely impossible for the idea to arise without Superman being real?Whichever set of standards you decide apply, those are the ones that apply to the idea of God as well.

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"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

Whatever. All I know is that an easter bunny is based on two realities. Superman is a modern day invention. We are talking about an ancient people "making up" God. The fact is that I cannot prove they didn't make him up and you cannot prove they did. All we know is that we can speculate about it. What I am saying is that superman is made up from realities we see around us. God cannot be shown from realities around us. Superman can be "thought up" from man and from flight. God?? Where are the realities if he is made up? When people make things up those made-up things are based on realities. To me, it would be as simple as the easter bunny if God was made up. What is "I am" made up from? IF God can be shown from realities around us. Define God? There are too many biblical forms, he is a "presence" a "Holy Spirit - an invisible entity.That's all I have said really. That's just my opinion ofcourse.You see, all I know is that a lot of "made-up" things are very easily "made-up" from what we see around us, (reality). Therefore, in a sense, there is "some" reality to superman. If an alien race came down, and saw superman the movie, they would think we where some kind of "man" who can "fly" and is "strong". In reality we are just a man, but superman his hardly an "alien" alien is he? What, blue eyes and jet black hair with a human body, where on earth did we get that idea?It is not so simple to say God is made up. You cannot define him or show the realities he is based on. Maybe - he isn't made up.

an alien.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

What about the Dao? The concept itself is 100 times harder to grasp than the Judeo-christian God.

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The Laminator

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Don't loose hope if your prayer isn't answered. If you pray for something that isn't going to help you find faith (pray for $ or a pig to fly by, etc...) I wouldn't expect much. Pray for direction, encouragement, discernment, understanding, guidance, help for others, these prayer types I find he's more than happy to oblige. Be strong and listen you will hear him. God Bless. -Z

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I cannot prove they didn't make him up and you cannot prove they did.

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Fascinating. Totally irrelevant, since I wasn't trying to prove the non-existence of God, but fascinating nonetheless. (I generally don't waste my time trying to prove negatives. I just let Logic 101 take its course.)I was simply refuting the idea that God is an impossible concept to just come up with out of the blue.

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God?? Where are the realities if he is made up?

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Sentient creature. Creates life. Simplistic? Sure. No moreso than man and flies.

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Define God? There are too many biblical forms, he is a "presence" a "Holy Spirit - an invisible entity.

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And once again... yes, God has terrible characterization. But that's just what we call "bad writing".

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In reality we are just a man, but superman his hardly an "alien" alien is he? What, blue eyes and jet black hair with a human body, where on earth did we get that idea?

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Okay, for the sake of argument, change Superman to Martian Manhunter. Do a google image search if you don't know what he looks like.

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"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

There is no "bad writing" in the bible. That's hardly a refutation. If you are trying to show that God isn't an impossible concept to come up with then fine, but that won't prove your point anyway, because he might be an impossible concept back then.Okay - sure, nowadays - maybe he is quite an easier concept to come up with. Now Predator - now that would be a better argument for you. What the hell is that ugly dude based on? But, the past was a very different place - movies didn't exist, people were less informed.If you only want to say "God isn't impossible to come up with" - fine, in this age it seems possible. YET - if you seek to say it wouldn't be impossible to come up with the idea back then? What then is your motive? - Speculation it will be, and certainly it will show that you want to say God is made up. Let's be honest - you do think God is made up, so logical endeavors are useless diversions.

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There is no "bad writing" in the bible.

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You said yourself... God's not even effectively described. Sounds like piss-poor characterization to me.

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If you only want to say "God isn't impossible to come up with" - fine, in this age it seems possible. YET - if you seek to say it wouldn't be impossible to come up with the idea back then?

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What's the difference? Has some sort of fiction-writing ability descended on man in the interim? I guess Homer was some sort of futuristic mutant?

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Let's be honest - you do think God is made up, so logical endeavors are useless diversions.

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Yes I do think God is made up, but I certainly don't see how that renders logic useless.Mike, you're smart enough to know that when you start denying the effectiveness of logic, your point's pretty much finished.

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"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

Logic is ofcourse effective. Yet what I mean is, you are trying to use it to say "I'm only saying ..." But then you go and admitt: So why invoke logic as to your position? - That's all I meant. You can still apply logic to this argument, but these arguments are illogical anyway - because they are based on speculation. If you think God is made up, you must surely have evidence? But can you prove he is made up? - Ofcourse you can't. We are both arguing a speculative premise.All I am saying is that we would both need a time machine to see what Neander and his mates actually got up to. I know you want a big debate with me on this, cos I am your sparring partner, but it seems like an empty topic when we are just "guessing". All I have ever claimed, is that even with "made-up" things, there can be realities to their basis. Are you saying God is based in reality? No, he is indescribable because of his supernature. So, it is not poor writing if a human can only try his best to describe him. There is an attempt to describe the indescribable and awesome God, yet any attempt may appear like poor characterization. Am I ammoying you yet? - I hope so. lol.

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If you think God is made up, you must surely have evidence?

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We see a book. We know people wrote it. There is no reason to assume it is a true story, or to take it as anything other than what it is... a book.You want to claim the book is true, feel free to support it any time.

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All I have ever claimed, is that even with "made-up" things, there can be realities to their basis.

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Of course there can be. So?

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Are you saying God is based in reality?

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In the same way that Superman is based in reality, sure.

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No, he is indescribable because of his supernature.

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Convenient. Remind me to use that trick in my next story."No, it only seems like twenty blank pages! Really, every character in this story can neither be drawn nor described because of their supernature!"Gee, maybe storytelling like that will get me a religion of my very own!

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"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly